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Please remember!  These are archives!  The Dice Setter message board was shut down. What is published here are just a few of the threads documenting the early days of dice setting strategies and opinions written by the pioneers of dice influencing.

Topic: Barring Precision Shooters

Post Date: 8/15/2001 4:48:41 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Combato

How long before casinos begin barring craps players who are perceived to have and advantage over the house ?

Are we in the beginning stages of what blackjack went through after Beat The Dealer came out ?

I am curious as to anyone's thoughts on this topic. And how many truly good precision shooters are out there and do they indeed pose a financial threat to the casinos ?


Post Date: 8/16/2001 9:58:12 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: SFury
Slogan: Beginners Opinion

I think it will be long time, if ever, that casinos will start barring precision shooters. I believe that there are very, very few true actual precision shooters(I’m not one of them).

I’m being reading all the dice setting boards and information I can over the last six weeks. I just finished a practice table a few days ago. I’ve thrown a set of 540 throws with the flying V set. Probably more dice thrown then at all the casino craps tables I’ve ever played. My median throw for these tosses is 9 (9 throws till 7 out). My throw of seven’s is –1.2 percentage (I threw 15.5% sevens in the 540 throws). This I can chalk up to standard deviation. So based on my beginner opinion:

On blackjack:

It took me all of one week to learn basic strategy and card counting.
Blackjack players have only the dealer’s cards to beat.
When the count is high, the player KNOWS he has an advantage.
There are many professional blackjack players.

Precision Shooting in craps:

I believe it will take several MONTHS of practice for be to be comfortable with certain dice sets, and I have to have at least two, one for comeouts and one for points. Most people will not put this amount of time into it.
Craps players seldom play alone. Other people roll the dice at the table. Sure, you don’t have to bet on them, but what fun is that?
I don’t know what the next roll we be, I’m only trying to find a set that rolls more of certain numbers then the others. I could still seven-out at any time. I know I have a long term advantage.. but will today be a good or bad roll day?
From what I have read, even I precision shooter cannot choose the number they are going to throw, only a range of numbers. Because of this, the rolls look like a sampling of random number from a long term set.
I believe there are very few true precision shooters and even less professional craps players.

Blackjack Verses Craps:

When playing blackjack, if the count suddenly goes high, a player may change from a ten dollar bet to a sixty-dollar bet. It not that hard to figure out what is going on, hence all the books on “camouflaging” card counting.
When playing craps, the bets are played as the roll progresses. I hot shooter will get more action on the table on certain numbers. From what I read, the precision shooter follows every shooter to determine trends and bets accordingly; therefore, their bet is not increasing/decreasing wildly.
When playing craps, almost everyone bets heavier on themselves then the other shooters, I think it’s almost excepted.
Hiding precision shooting is not that hard, about half the people set the dice at any given table anyway. Just because they set the dice does not mean they are a precision shooter. I’ve seen people take eons to set the dice, then wing them at the back wall at Mach 5 so the dice bounce like superballs. I don’t think that is precision shooting.
Blackjack is easy to learn and easy to play. Craps takes some time to learn and much more time in investigating betting strategies and even more time learning/practicing set throwing.
Most people playing blackjack can bet easily (There are only a few bets). I’ve seen some craps players make completely crazy bets, especially high rollers (Press my $100 hardways….) I believe that most true precision shooters are not of the high roller type and play to make a profit, by changing bets as the roll progresses. I haven’t seen a high roller (My definition: Bets equal to or greater then $100 per bet) who could precision shoot yet. I believe precision shooter bet on their best bets for their rolls and make money slowly over a session, they are not looking for that “big hit” on one roll of the dice.

On the Casinos
Unless craps play starts to produce lower then excepted “take” in the casino, the casino is not going to bar setters. I don’t think this will happen for a long time either, as there are to many beginner players and too many high rollers dropping tons on money on high vig bets.
I few precision shooters taking $250-$1000 a day on a table is not going to affect to casino’s “take” by that much. Sometimes even random shooters win that much on a hot roll.
I suppose if a group of precision shooter got together and played the same casino for a week, the casino would start to catch on. I don’t think this will happen. Precision shooters are a smart group, learning dice sets, betting methods, and practicing. I would hope they would move around from casino to casino taking a little here, a little there, so as not to ruin it for themselves and the rest of us, when we get more practice inJ.
Some casinos have barred setting dice, but there are ways around this, in one of Mad Professor’s articles on this site, he explains a simple toking method to get the dice back to you with the numbers you want up.

Just my thoughts and options,
SFury
Roll True


Post Date: 8/16/2001 12:44:57 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Mad Professor

SFury,

Very well written.

MP


Post Date: 8/18/2001 10:33:22 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Roller

Based on my observation at LOTS of casinos, it does not appear that there are many true precision players.

I may have seen one or so, but it's extremely rare. I do, however, see LOTS of setters who fiddle the dice forever and then just scatter them all over. That's why I'd really like to see some good rollers in the casino. I have my hot and cold streaks, but I think it's a good idea for precision rollers to meet at a casino to learn this.

No question, some casinos definitely bar setting. This occurs in many places, although it is less likely for the higher end casinos. Those places ALWAYS lose my business.

Therefore, threats by precision shooters seem to very low overall.

Roller


Post Date: 8/22/2001 10:48:10 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: fred leong
Slogan: rhythm dice setter

The key to setting the dice is to set them quick. After a while you can set them up with one or two movement as you know the location of the number that you want and where they are on the dice regardless of where the stick man gives them to you. If you set them quick, the stickman or the pit guy can't complain and you get what you want. Plus it never hurts to make a two way bet for the boys and they will tolerate almost anything legal.

Post Date: 8/23/2001 4:28:24 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Ron Landon Sr.

Humm, good thoughts.. However, got my first warning from our (only) local Casino just last night.. Quite simple, your gonna cost us to much money if you keep doing that !! Last time I heard that one, no more Roulette.... So, I do think it could happen..
Ron Landon Sr.


Post Date: 8/23/2001 5:21:17 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Anonymous

One factor to consider is that when you are precision shooting at a crowded table, the players are winning money, the dealers are raking in tokes, the chances of getting heat is going to be from the box or the pit. The pit runs the risk of running off a bunch of potential losing customers if they start hassling a winning shooter who is playing by the rules.

Does anyone think this is a valid point.
A big difference between craps and blackjack is the group mentality of a crap table. I do not think casino personnel are stupid enough to alienate an entire table of random rollers ( losers ) just because one dice setter happens to be winning a few bets on a hot roll. Who would want to play at a place where a " No Winners Allowed " policy is in effect ?


Post Date: 8/23/2001 7:31:52 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: THE GROUP

Use some psychology make a hardways bet for you and the crew and ask the stick to give em back hard 6 up if you throw the v6 set. Or you can ask for your preference sixes up etc. after a few tokes before the dies come your way unless the stick is a real ass he will do it for you.

Post Date: 8/29/2001 1:12:46 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: ausound

are we in the beginning stages of casino response to dice sharpshooters? dunno. It will depend on the response of the general public. if the general public votes with their feet abandoning casinos with no setting/no winning rules, it will become a competitive edge for those allowing it.
FWIW: I've been banned twice and returned to the same casinos with no problem. ausound


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