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Please remember!  These are archives!  The Dice Setter message board was shut down. What is published here are just a few of the threads documenting the early days of dice setting strategies and opinions written by the pioneers of dice influencing.

What Dice Must Do.... And Not Do

basicstrategy777

irishsetter,

Although not a believer (yet) I do set the dice when I throw (like chicken soup, I figure it can't hurt and might help).

Although I'm sure covered elsewhere, I wonder if you could give me a list of what the shooter/the dice MUST do........and what they must NOT do to "insure" a proper toss.

These should be black and white statements with no gray areas. In short, what MUST be present in order to get the desired outcome.....and what are those things that are sure to thwart the outcome you are seeking.

Some examples of what I mean are.......

MUST:

1. Dice must travel thru the air as one unit.

2, Dice must have no backspin.

3, Dice must land 8 inches from the table.

4. Shooter must position himself between the hooks in the center.

5. The dice must be tossed so they come down at a 45 degree angle when they hit the table.

Irish, I understand some of these examples are not true
and do not fill the requirement of what MUST be present
for a correct toss........MUST the dice have backspin.....MUST they land 8 inches from the table.....MUST the shooter position himself at a particular spot.......probably no, no, no.

Obviously its the results that count ......your golf swing can be different, your grip can be different but everybody's hand/body position is virtually identical 18 inches into the hitting area on the downswing.......how they got there is another matter.

In short, I'm just wondering if there are certain cardinal rules ( MUST and MUST NOT DO) that one must follow for a proper toss; rules that a vast majority of those respected in the field agree on.

The Ice Man

If you really want to know all that, why not just purchase a PARR course? Cuts the learning curve right down to the quick. Comes with video tape, audio tapes and manuals.

I doubt if anyone will give you one for free online....which is what your question pretty much seems to asks for.

irishsetter

Basic.

I'll come up with a list, but for now, I'll give you one MUST NOT DO:

DO NOT purchase the PARR course.

In addition to philosophical differences I have with PARR and the fact that it's a highly flawed product, the changing state of dice seminars leads me believe that most of their best instructors are abandoning ship. They may be painting a happy face on the current state of PARR on their board, but the reality is, my guess is that for the next year, members will be milked for all they're worth, with a "retirement" following shortly thereafter.

Ice, you'll have to try to sell it elsewhere.

(think about it, how much has been marketed to you in the past month? Dice board renewal fee, $129, "New" craps strategy only $295 etc. etc...there WILL be more to come, I guarantee it)

PS. For anyone pondering a discussion of the the future of PARR here on this board, think again.

basicstrategy777

thank you irish.

BBMW

Basic,

Most of what you need to get started, you can get out of books, and then develop the rest yourself.

The book that got me started is 'Conquering Casino Craps' by John Gollehon. This book is not predominantly about controlled throwing, but it does give a very good, concise overview of the mathematical aspects of axial setting and throwing, and a smidgen on technique (more on what has to be done, not much on how to do it). It's a seven dollar paperback you can get at Barnes & Noble.

You also might want to get Yuri Konennenko's book, 'Dice Control for Casino Craps'. There's alot more how-to in that book, although I don't agree with everything he says. This book is not available in bookstores, but Irishsetter can hook you up with it.

The new Sharpshooter book, 'Get the Edge at Craps' had promise. However, I bought it, and was disappointed. It was more confusing than anything else. It is also available at bookstores, so flip through it and see if there's anything you can get out of it.

johnsterling

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH SETTER ON THIS! I purchased parr coarse and returned it when I realized that there was basically nothing there worth keeping. The video just shows basically random shooters with long rolls. (you can see this all day long at any casino for the price of a $5 pass or don't pass bet. Sure they set the dice in the video, but the throws hit the back wall so hard that the end result is nothing more then random.)

The basic selling point of Parr is you will make friends, even if you never really learn any new skill at all.

Funny thing though, If I ever actually had the ability to profitably alter the outcome of the dice through some setting and/or throwing method. I do know that if I was selling the idea to others in any kind of seminar form, I believe I would demand that they follow my method exactly without any exceptions. Stand here, hold the dice like this, throw this way, etc. etc.

Claiming to change or practice what may or may not work with dice setting, grips or throws is what keeps me rather suspicious of the whole thing overall. (Parr uses a version of this to keep those participants who are totally failing in the fold, "you need more practice, you need to be in the zone... this is their favorite I think, you need to come to a clinic, you need a personal coach, bah, bah, bah.")

Back to your idea, wouldn't it be a thousand times more productive in the long run IF you where told what EXACTLY to do from the start? Vagueness is a fantastic selling tool for those selling seminars.

irishsetter

I'm assuming that you have never played college level or semi professional sports of any kind. From kicking a soccer ball to throwing a baseball, to golf, it's nearly impossible to "describe" the one way to do something.

For instance, how do you throw a curve ball? Are there 10 easy steps? One Grip? One motion? Are the steps the same from the stretch as they are from a full wind up? If you are looking for 10 easy steps to dice influencing success, you will be disappointed. I will give some things to mull over, but they are simply how I SHOOT, which neither makes them right nor does it make it the best way to shoot. The fact of the matter is, to have a list at all, you have to speak in generalizations.

THERE IS NOT:

One "best" grip.
One "best" set.
One "best" throwing motion
One "best" stance.
A "correct" amount of backspin. (or lack thereof)
One "best" landing zone as every table has a different bounce personality.

Anybody who is telling you that there are, is lying.


TO DO's.

1. Dice should travel from the beginning of the throw to the end of the throw at a 90 degree angle to the back wall. The goal is to maintain the axial relationship that you have set the dice.

2. The dice should travel at the same height, same speed, same amount of rotation (or lack thereof). They should travel the same distance, impact the table at the same time and come to a stop at the same time. It IS ideal for the dice to travel as one unit, though not imperative if the previous items occur.

3. Interaction with the pyramids will most frequently (but not always) interfere with a successful throw. A soft throw which only touches the bottom portion of the back wall has the highest likelihood for success.

4. Though there is not a "best" stance, it's imperative to be balanced in your stance.

5. The recommended positions for novice shooters are from 1st position to the left and right of the stick person as they have the shortest shooting range.


So, in short to answer your question basic. You must practice and and be able to re-create a throw in a casino setting, such that from beginning to end of a throw, the dice maintain the axial relationship you intended at least 50% of the time. The black and white statement that you were hoping for is that and that only. I've always maintained, that no one can prove dice influencing to you, you must prove it to your self. The fact that there are vocal skeptics and poorly trained dice setters, guarantees that I'll be able to do this for awhile. If you want to be successful, then you have to put in the practice time.

OnARoll

Sounds like what you are asking for is the "basics" so to speak, stripped of the technique one uses to achieve those basics. I have 3 basics I think about when trying out new ideas/techniques.

1. Ideally the dice must remain square to the table surface and the back wall. Use whatever technique turns you on.
2. You want the energy you put into the dice to be dissipated in an orderly manner. More energy isn't necessarily bad if it is dissipated in a more controlled way ie a straight roll.
3. You get better results if you can keep the dice spinning at the same rate so the faces stay aligned

raydpratt

I suspect that successful dice setting and precision shooting could be reduced to a physics formula, and perhaps someday it will be, but I'm also quite sure that the formula will be composed entirely of variables and no constants.

All successful dice setting and precision throwing techniques have one common element in that the physical forces that tend to keep the dice in the desired configuration are greater than the forces that could cause randomization at any given time until the dice come to rest.

Thus, no one can dogmatically say, for example, that a high arc will always lead to random dice splatter, nor even that a low arc will impart too much energy, for it may be possible to counteract forces of randomization by increasing backspin or reducing throwing distance or changing the landing zone, etc., ad infinitum.

A good physicist could probably work out a formula for us with all the variables correctly related, and such a physicist could even diagram a variety of successful techniques and explain to us how the interdependent forces interact, but until that day comes along, we have to learn by reading the dice setting classics and by practicing and thinking and asking others.

There is no absolute list, and perhaps not even my 'overriding force' requirement, since there may be a way to take advantage of some degree of randomization rather than always trying to overcome it.(For example, all intermediate dice setters understand the advantage claimed by some practicing beginners who throw the all-sevens set during point cycles as a means of reducing the frequency of the seven through their reliably poor skill.)

Dylanfreak

I remember when I first started setting the dice ---I had such a bad time and was so frustrated that I almost gave up touching the dice---I was so bad that i was using the All Sevens for points---then all of a sudden I would be tossing in the casino and I began getting Sevens out of that All Sevens Set---This was after a lot of practice time---My biggest problem with the dice now is keeping them level so that they land flat on the table so as to roll straight to the wall and rebound lightly straight from the wall if they happen to miss kissing the bottom rubber

sitecst40

Believe me im not one to sell dicesetting to anyone . Do i think it works ......yea ,all that matters to me. The only thing i see to add is dice control isnt 100% you use it to change the odds in your favor . ie random is a 7 every 6 rolls if by setting the dice i can throw just 7 times before a 7 then it has worked . As far as the classes and usung it to make friends ......hell with my personality i have to pay people just to talk to me ....

The Man In Black

Everyone who has posted on this thread has made some good points, so I'll go ahead and throw in my 2 worth.

Everything you need to know to play this game from basics to becoming a successful precision shooter is on this site. This includes how dice "should" react in different situations, whether it be the age of the dice to the table conditions.

Many here have written articles and posted messages on how the dice have reacted in their situations, as well as to how they have adjusted. If you haven't already, I recommend going through this whole board and the articles on the site to find such texts.

Maybe my post here was just adding more cream on the cake, but there it is.

basicstrategy777

thank you to those that answered with some specifics.

some stand out/common thread words were........."square"...."straight"...
"90 degrees"..."everything the same"...."aligned"....
"balanced"...."practice"

Is there an acknowledged, unofficial, world champion precision shooter?.....or maybe a top three.....I'd like to see them in action.

I'll be digging deeper into this subject with an open mind, although I must admit I am still a skeptic.

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