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Please remember!  These are archives!  The Dice Setter message board was shut down. What is published here are just a few of the threads documenting the early days of dice setting strategies and opinions written by the pioneers of dice influencing.

Two Fingered Grip (thumb and middle finger)

 raydpratt

I made an amazing discovery at nearly 4 a.m. this morning about the grip and release mechanics for the two-finger grip (the middle finger and thumb), and I wanted to share it with anyone trying to master it's less-difficult relative the four-finger grip (the index, middle and ring fingers in front and the thumb in back)(a.k.a. the "Sharpshooter's grip").

I had been practicing the Sharpshooter's grip all the previous night and into the morning hours in a mock game that would neither take all my money nor give me victory.

After I quit and saved the WinCraps record to continue another day, I later started throwing the dice just to feel and watch for insight into what I was doing. Then I once accidentally threw the dice with just the two-finger grip, and they flew well in the air with backspin and landed well. I was shocked! I had concluded long ago that the two-fingered grip is a montrosity of disparate finger pressure on the middle of the dice and that it would never work well.

That immediately got me to thinking that if I could figure out how to use that grip consistently, then the same grip with training wheels (the outside front fingers of the Sharpshooter's grip) should be a breeze. So, I kept at it until I figured it out.

When the arm swings up with the dice in the two-finger grip on the top of the dice, the bottom of the dice become the end closest to the table, and the kinetic energy of the swing keeps the bottom ends of the dice pressed together, especially with the middle finger and thumb acting like fixed hinges up top. As the dice are ready to leave, the thumb gets out of the way so that the middle finger can press a little to start the backspin and to also impart enough pressure to keep the top ends of the dice together as they leave the hand.

It is a balance of force and split-second timing, but towards the end I got "wow" good at it.   We all know how it goes, and this may be a faded and impossible memory if I were to try it again even now, but I nonetheless believe that the Sharpshooter's grip should be approached and mastered with the same underlying mechanics in mind since the outside fingers should just guide rather than put pressures on the dice equal to the middle finger and thumb.

I would appreciate any feedback, yes or no, since I still have to master the Sharpshooter's grip myself.

Very Respectfully,

Ray  

pj

Ray,

I have been using this grip for a few months now. Seems to be very easy to get use to, but I have had some problem with 1 dice having more energy and bouncing out from the back wall (your comments on energy).

With the thumb and middle finger it seems very easy to keep both dice together. As a preset I use the 1st finger and third finger to make sure the dice are together. Then moving the middle finger to the center of the dice prior to the throw. You may also want to vary you position of you middle finger from top to the bottom of the dice depending on how throwing is going.

I have added some backspin in the throw and this seems to stablize the dice in their landing. So far results are good, but more practice is needed. Good luck

Mickey_D.

Here's a tip on the two fingered grip problem of having one die get more energy than the other. This is happening because you've got more contact and or pressure on that one over-active die! Here's the thing that throws you off: When you take the grip you'll be looking down at the dice and you'll swear that your middle finger is dead center on the seam. Here's the rub! Pick the dice up and turn them upside down so you can view the grip from underneath. Look at where the middle finger is contacting both dice and you'll probably see that what you thought was the same amount of middle finger on each die is actually not so! More than likely you'll find that you have more of the finger on the left hand die!! Make the adjustment and you should get better results!!!

FullOfCraps

Wow mickey, you did a fine job of fixing this problem, for me that is. I sometimes notice while practicing that one die will get more movement., that the other, I have used your suggestions, and realized the visual effect looking down at the die does do the finger placement justice, you gotta look at the bpottom as well. I was not using this grip for a wile because of that problem.

Thanks

irishsetter

I know I'm in the minority here, but I find, the midde finger/thumb grip is most effective when thrown directly from the table (vs being thrown from the air). It's easier to get a REALLY stable grip prior to throwing and assuring your lead finger is square in the middle (as MickeyD mentioned) is also somewhat simpler. 

raydpratt

First, I'm shocked that so many of you actually use the two-fingered grip.

Second, thank you MickyD for the tip about looking for uneven finger placement, since the only other explanation that I could think of was uneven thumb pressure or sticky dice. I used some talc powder and I tried to line up the force through the dice between the middle finger and thumb, but now I can check one more possibility.

I've also found a quite different source of error: I've been using the roll-your-own-numbers feature of WinCraps 4.7 to keep track of my dice setting, and I've seen from the graphs that I have a performance curve that tops out and then goes south if I play too long.

I've got one game running where I've played 6.55 hours so far, have put $3,738 into action with mostly $5 to $6 bets, and I have lost a grand total of $2.

I'M NOT MOVING TO VEGAS ANY TIME SOON.

Very Respectfully,

Ray  

raydpratt  

MickyD:

As you suggested, I picked the dice up in the 2-fingered grip with what I thought was an evenly divided middle finger, but when I turned my hand over and looked at my finger tip, it was a long "Oh No" moment. I found that when properly placed, my middle finger felt like it was too far over to the left die (I'm right-handed).

After correcting the error, I started getting sweet table action with both dice coming back the same distance from the back wall.

That's sort of it for me, and I don't expect that I'll be practicing the 4-fingered grip all that much anymore since I can get everything I want out of the 2-fingered grip and with less error (for me).

I understand Dreamwater's objections, but I have already learned that my arm doesn't have to go up like a ballerina because I can choose the release angle by changing my wrist angle and still get the grip and release to work properly. And as to excess spin, I'm not having that problem, and I've found accidentally that I could throw them with zero spin, although I was not happy with it. The point is, there's more than enough room to perfect the 2-fingered grip.

I've said it five times or more here at home, and once here, but I don't mind saying it again, "Thank you MickyD!"

Very Respectfully 

Mickey_D.

Sharing information is what we're all here for. So, Ray, I'm very glad to have contributed. Continued good luck to you.

Grip is such a personal part of each players arsenal. It's chosen from among a number reasons, one of which is physical. A certain grip that is a killer for one player may just not be "do-able" by another due to the size and shape of the fingers, hand and arm. So the better players will search until the right combination is found.

All I know is that I've had 5 winning sessions out of my last 7 outings. My SRR is just over 11 and I had a practice session this past Sunday that included a hand of 54 rolls before the devil showed. All of this was accomplished with the two fingered grip! 

P.S.

Shooting from "Off the Table" as Irish noted! 

Steve

Also, you can try rolling your middle finger a little t'wards your ring finger, it'll feel somwhat awkward, but it helps me to keep the dice together. 

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