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Please remember!  These are archives!  The Dice Setter message board was shut down. What is published here are just a few of the threads documenting the early days of dice setting strategies and opinions written by the pioneers of dice influencing.

Any Poor Skill Set Adjustments?


I'm going to explore adjusting my sets to my poor skill, and I'd like to know if anyone has already done this thinking. I've been on a losing streak on my practice table that has had me in fits. For example, yesterday I rolled the all-sevens set 27 times on the come-out rolls and hit one slop 6+1 seven and no others. I nonetheless rolled six craps (12, 3, 2, 2, 3, 2), and two yo's. I was mind numb at the end of it all. In 17 point cycles (series, hands, whatever), my SRR was 5.33 and I would have lost money. Today's practice was much of the same, but I varied some things looking for an answer to my problem, and I got more sevens out of the all-sevens set, but still would have lost money with an abysmal SRR of 4.53! Is that even randomly possible over a run of 26 point cycles? It occurred to me that my poor skill was affecting the dice in some uniform way, but not to my liking. First, I noted that in yesterday's session, I was throwing the all-sevens set with the 5 and 2 on top because I had noticed previously that I was accidentally throwing more yo's with these numbers on top as opposed to when the 4 and 3 are on top. I didn't know why, but I ran with it. I now realize that my most common error is for one or both dice to switch to the Z axis (rolling left or right). Apparently, this error was often turning my all-sevens set into the 34-34 axes set which, wow!, gives me a lot of stinking craps with a couple yo's! Thinking about this, I compared the possibilities and have switched my all-sevens set to the 4 and 3 on top, though I'd rather just start rolling better. However, taking me as I am, I want to adjust all my specific point sets to achieve the greatest amount of seven-avoidance for my most frequent error of either one or the other die going left or right on the Z axis. Has anyone already done this work and figured out the potential advantage or lack of advantage of adjusting set faces to compensate for various frequencies of off-axis errors? (Staying on the X-axes is not an error, so the only errors are when one or both dice switch to the Z-axis [rolling left or right] or get tumbled to the Y-axis [the top and bottom faces get tumbled and become the axles of the wheel]) Do you have a chart of sets, etc., that you'd like to share?

Mickey D

Ray: This may be a little bit out in left field but, here goes. I believe you have a solution, you just need to explore it. Does the name W. Timothy Gallwey ring a bell? What would he tell you to do right now? I think he would advise you to stop trying to it right! And just do it and pay attention to what is happening. Make some thorws and ask yourself, How high is my arc?, Where is my hand when I start my toss? Where do I let go of the dice? What does the pressure feel like that I'm exerting on the dice? Wher are the doce landing? Where are they hitting on the back wall? Do I have more weight on my right foot or my left foot? Where am I touching the rail?

My advise is to stop trying!!!! Just throw and pay attention to what is happening. How do the dice feel in each finger that touches them. Do they touch the dice in the same way on each toss? What am I doing with my breath when I throw the dice?

Stop trying for results. You don't get results by trying your hardest to get them. Results are the by product of focusing on certain, other aspects of your throw. Focus on them one at a time and results should follow.

Best of luck


Hey Ray -

If you are getting all those 2', 2's, 11's and 12's then the dice are either (a) not staying on axis or (b) set to the wrong axis. The 6 and the 1 should be on the lateral faces of both dice on the all-sevens set. If that's the way you've got them set and you're getting all the horn numbers then you simply are having a problem keeping them on axis. Sharpshooter and Dominator will help you with that this week. As for the chart - there is one posted in my articles section that you can look at. Gives the break down of numbers rolled on the various sets. I have a strategy card I put together that shows photos of the various dice sets on one side - and has the numbers distibution chart on the back. Corner me at the PARR school and I'll get you a copy.


Heavy: I have a print-out of your set chart from the Irishsetter's site, and I sat down to start looking at my usual sets this morning along with the chart, so I'm okay on having a chart of the sets broken down for me. My usual point sets put two of the number(s) I want on the original four faces so that I'll have a better chance of hitting them if I stay on axis and keep the same rotations, but I've discovered one potential problem, so far, with this method. If I'm setting for a point of six, I'll set up the V 3's on the 52-61 axes (not the 52-16) because that gives me another six (1+5) adjacent to the V 3's and thus increases my chances of hitting a six if I stay on axis and keep the same number of rotations between the dice. If I also hit the table near the back wall, I find that the sixes have a better chance. (I use similar sets for the points of 5 -&- 9 with the 52-16 axes, and for the points of 4 -&- 10 with the 34-61 axes.) However, I discovered this morning that when setting for a point of six with the V 3's on top with the 52-61 axes, that if either die goes left or right one rotation while the other die goes forward one rotation, you have a seven. And if they simply rotate as such the same number of times, you have half a chance of a seven. To cure this, I'm going to turn the dice around to the 16-25 axes and start with the 5+1 six on top which will still give me the power of the set without the same risk of getting a seven when going off axis on one die. I'm going to go through all my other sets the same way to see if any similar problems are lurking in the shadows. Thank you for your chart! You made it possible for me to figure out what the heck might be going on.

I just now figured out that the problem with the V 3's on top with the 52-61 axes only occurs when the right die rolls to the right or when the left die rolls to the left while either of the other dies go forward. My guess is that the dice clicking upon landing will send one die off axis and stabilize the other to stay on axis --- much like how your stacked set will plant the bottom die.



MD and heavy have given you the best long term advice, that is to find out why your throws are going off axis and correcting the problem. In the mean time let me suggest that you try the flying v set. I can’t explain why this works for me, but it’s worth a try for anyone having consistent off axis throws. Of all the various axis combinations, I have a significantly higher SRR with the flying v set. Since I noticed this occurring, I now use the flying v set exclusively, no come out set, just the flying v on each and every throw. With over half of my throws having either one or both die off axis, in practice my average SRR runs between 8 -&- 9. Until I can greatly improve my on axis throws, I will continue to concentrate on 7 avoidance.

My preferred set is 3 6 – 3 2, that is the left top = 3, left front = 6, right top = 3 -&- right front = 2. But you may find one of the other variations of this same set work better. Even just interchanging the right die with the left can make a difference. Also try 3 2 – 3 6, 3 1 - 3 5 and 3 5 – 3 1.

Follow The Trend


Ray, The hardway set is the most effective set in avoiding the 7. Changing your set to compinsate for your errors is not the answer. The answer is in proper grip and throw and release and of course practice. We will spend sometime on this in class this weekend

Bill S

Hopefully the hardway set will be expressed in a less definitive way in your class. It is one of several choices. To state it as the only choice robs YOU of choices. If what dominator has stated were an absolute, then every PARR player would be using the hardway set, which I know for a fact that they don't. To all of you attending, I hope you learn a lot, but I hope you all also have enough confidence in your skill to be able to sift through statements like,

":Ray,The hardway set is the most effective set in avoiding the 7."

in a thoughtful way. And before I'm slammed by PARR folks, Ray I think you'll learn A TON this weekend. I only have this to say, There are NO absolutes in dice setting.


All You Guys: Thank You! This morning I started practicing without playing any mock games, but just focussing on what the heck was going on either with the dice or my head (I couldn't believe the incredible lack of skill I've been having). My latest conclusion (knock on wood), after again starting to throw sevens out of the all-sevens set, is that we can focus so much on grip and arm movement, etc., that we can lose track of the most important thing of all -- table action. If the dice are rolling smoothly into the bottom of the rubber and coming back out on axis, then I get good results, and it doesn't matter what grip or arm movement gets me there as long as the table action is good. No wonder that we all have so many different grips! Table action is the bottom line, not the grips, etc. Well, we'll see. Vegas doesn't have a re-roll policy for practicing dice setters, so it's show time in no time, and that's the bottom line.


It was never stated that the hardway set is not the only choice in sets, but a great majority of instructors do use it. I will go back to this set if I am off a little. I use 3 V if I want to snip out 6's and 8's. But the hardway set is the best set for 7 avoidance and should be used until you are proficient at making the perfect pitch. Lets take a look at this set. A quarter pitch of one die dice forward or backward or a yaw, dice quarter turning to the left of right will result in inside box hits or a Yo. A roll, pitch or Yaw of both dice will give you secondary hits, and even a double yaw or a double roll gives you a 50 50 chance of hitting a hardway combination. Both dice pitching in the same direction doesn't give you a 7, plus or minus or either die doesn't give you a 7. The only fatal move is a double pitch of one die with the other die being a primary hit.

To all attending, I know you will learn a lot if you come to class with an open mind and realize that what we will show you has been proven over and over again, that the students that have come thru this class have become proficient at rolling in a much shorter length of time. That the students are consistent in your throws and can immediately know what they were doing wrong when the have short rolls.

It is not my intention to slam anyone, but to show you mathematically that the hardway set is the best for 7 avoidance. Changing dice sets because of a flaw in the grip and delivery can help in the short run, if you are in the heat of battle and have money on the table and you need to make some points. But this is like taking an aspirin for pain of a broken hand and not getting the hand in cast to heal the problem.

At home and practice you should be aware of your grip and toss. To think that table conditions are the bottom line and not the grip is an error. Yes there are many grips, but there are certain grips that will result in better tosses. Not everyone can use them because of their hands, but what ever grip you use there are basics that need to be remembered in them, but grip and toss are the main things that will lead you to consistency in your throw.


I have to come to Dominators defense. If you look at the all the possible combinations on the dice faces their are 2 ways to make a 7,4-3 and 2-5 provided the dice stay on axis. Other sets have only one way.This would appear to make them superior 7 avoidance sets. They may well be for the experienced shooter who has all aspects of grip and throw down. What PAAR states is that for the beginning setter the hardways set offers the most protection when considering the many things that can happen in the throw. Chris will have a chart showing how this works at the class.I myself started with the Hardways set got good and then decided to get real "smart " and vary my sets for different situations. I got mixed results but nowhere near what I had while using the hardways set. I switched back and proceded to roll the longest recorded roll of my career that very week. You have to make the determination for yourself based on what is happening and not on what someone says should happen.

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