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Please remember!  These are archives from the Dice Setter discussion message board!

Topic: Axis Set(s) vs Top/Face Set(s)

Post Date: 11/8/2001 7:54:19 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: PorkChop
Slogan: Hard 8's = Double Parlay

As is explained elsewhere, as their are only six axis sets available with two die, any/all independent top/face sets are in fact simply sub-sets of the axis sets - therefore my question is do top/face sets produce superior results vs axis sets?? - and if so - why??

Post Date: 11/8/2001 8:30:55 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: smoove j

I've thought about this, as well. The way I see it, a *truly* precise shooter can make the dice behave in a coupled manner (ie they make the same number of axial rotations). This means that while each die now has 4 possible outcomes, the dice are not independent. This can theoretically mean that the outcomes can be further reduced from 16 possible to 4 possible. Of course this is only the ideal case.

What really started me thinking about this was an article by Mad Prof, where he mentions that on the comeout roll his occurrence of 7's approaches 75%. A few seconds with a pair of dice will convince you that that is only possible if the dice are not independent of one another when he tosses. I'd be curious to hear how he manages to do it.

May your 7's be few and far between,


Post Date: 11/8/2001 10:38:13 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Mad Professor


You hit upon the reason for the high-occurrence of 7's on the Come-Out. They not only stay on-axis, but the dice each rotate the same number of "tumbles". Using the "all-7" set, there is a preponderance of 7 rolled.

Good Luck & Good Skill at the tables.

Post Date: 11/8/2001 11:18:47 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: smoove j

Mad Prof,

So is there some special technique that allows the dice to have such an amazing correspondence? Is it just a higher plane that practice will allow all of us prospective precision rollers to ascend to? Or do you have some kind of psychic super-glue ability up your sleeve. Either way, getting them to stay on axis and roll perfectly together is an amazing feat. Hats off to you!

May your 7's be few and far between,
--smoove j

Post Date: 11/8/2001 1:54:37 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Mad Professor

Hi Jay,

No, there is no psychic super-glue, I no longer have my Captain Crunch decoder ring, and I don't use the secret handshake of the Fraternal Order of Water-Buffalo to achieve consistency at the dice tables.

Understand that the dice do not roll perfectly on EVERY toss. De-randomizing the dice is enough to generate profit from 19-out-of-20 sessions.

It is easier to roll 7's from the "All-Seven" set on the come-out roll, than it is to roll just 6's and 8's from the 3-V set.

Everything that you need on that particular subject is right there in my articles.

Good Luck & Good Skill at the tables.


Post Date: 11/8/2001 3:05:53 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: PorkChop
Slogan: Hard 8's = Double Parlay

MP - Thank you for your invaluable insite - I have read 99.44% of your posts and I find them, (as EVERYONE else also does), simply fantastic - keep up the fine work. Not to seem like a simpleton - but I can not find a solid reference to what the "all sevens" set actually is, (ie - top/face set numbers), please enlighten the current darkness that obscures my vision.

Post Date: 11/8/2001 5:09:18 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Chemo Savvy
Home Page: Hiway66

Pork Chop,

Actually your question has several angles. There is a COMFORT level in setting with favored specific top/faces, so there's the psychological factor. You and MP have spoken eloquently about by top/face setting you are able to achieve a better success rate with your throwing. BUT lastly, there is the underlying reality that all precision shooters must also know how to quick set and camouflage your skill as some casinos will attempt to deter you. Excellent topic!

Post Date: 11/8/2001 5:39:49 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Mad Professor

Hi PC,

The "All-7" dice-set, is where each face of the two dice equals 7.

For example:
If you set the top face of two dice to a 3 on one face, and a 4 on the other, then it will automatically set up the 5 and 2 on another face. The 4 and 3 then appears on the third face, while the 2 and 5 appear on the fourth face. Finally the 1 and 6, and the 6 and 1 would form the axis.

That adds up to the "ALL-SEVEN" set that can be used for the come-out roll by a Pass Line bettor, or can be used by the Don't Pass bettor once they have established the Point.

When this set remains on axis, it also throws off a huge number of Hardways, and zero Craps.

Good Luck & Good Skill at the tables.


Post Date: 11/9/2001 8:25:33 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: PorkChop
Slogan: Hard 8's = Double Parlay

MP / Irish

Thank you for the input - I am using a voice system to record my practice throws at home - I am using two color die and I record the following data for each throw:


1. Table position, (SL, SLL, SR, SRR, etc).
2. Top face for red and green die.
3. Vertical face, (the face that I am look at on the vertical plane), for each die.
4. Grip, (I have defined three grips and numbered them 1-3), I try and throw sets of 600 throws with each grip).


1. Number of die that hit wall.
2. Approximate distance, (estimated in inches), of roll back from wall.
3. Top face of both read and green die.
4. Vertical face of both red and green die.

I also record the following:

Come Out
Point #
Point Made
Seven Out

Do you recommend recording any additional data??

When I get sufficient data, I can track/analyze a multitude of options - progress, results, trends, etc.

Any input that either of you would recommend would be greatly appreciated.


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