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Please remember!  These are archives!  The Dice Setter message board was shut down. What is published here are just a few of the threads documenting the early days of dice setting strategies and opinions written by the pioneers of dice influencing.

  Topic: Golden Goose Comments

Post Date: 10/25/2001 11:26:32 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: irishsetter
Home Page: ~woof~

Any comments on MP's new article should go here....

Post Date: 10/25/2001 1:11:26 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: BIGLOU
Slogan: May the dice be with you!

Take a look at this month's article in CASINO.COM,page 58 "Dice Setting-learn how to control the dice in craps".

Post Date: 10/25/2001 1:19:27 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Mad Professor


Can you give everyone a synopsis of that article. Not everyone receives that magazine.



Post Date: 10/25/2001 2:27:23 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Stu
Slogan: Professional want-to-be

Can sites like these also damgage the Golden Goose?

Why not tell the instructors of these programs of the harm they are doing? Do you think they would listen? Would this cut off some of their profit? Can they make adjustments in such a way, that would not cut off their profits?


Post Date: 10/25/2001 3:09:54 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Mad Professor

Yes, Part Two of the Golden Goose article will address what can be done.


Post Date: 10/25/2001 4:32:55 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: mini-V

Are we taking about the PARR course? If the graduates are acting this way, is Jerry Patterson aware of it? If not, he should. Does anyone on this board know him? Doesn't Sharpshooter read this board and isn't he a co-author of the course? Seems like when card counting became big and the casinos started implementing countermeasures, disguising techniques became a major topic. Perhaps it's time to consider them in Precision Shooting.

Post Date: 10/25/2001 4:46:57 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: irishsetter
Home Page: ~woof~

I've contacted Jerry P and he also responded to the original post yesterday, "Junk Drawer Table Practice" He's also aware of the situation and of MP's article. Sharpshooter has never made himself known to me, but neither have 24,800 other site visitors....

Post Date: 10/26/2001 11:33:26 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Tinhorn Gambler
Slogan: You've got to love this game

Mad Professor
Being a Vegas dice control shooter, I have to agree, you don't want to kill the Golden Goose.
This past weekend the town was full of dice setters and YES the heat was on in certain casino's. In fact,I connected with some of the PARR group and we did well.
You hit the nail on the head with alot of your comments, but the biggest problem I see is way too much time is being spent on deliberation. When the game pace is slowed because of the setting process or delivery -BEWARE- you are bringing alot of attention to yourself. Get that part of your game plan in control.
Yesterday I was at the Horseshoe and things do seem back to normal.

Post Date: 10/26/2001 12:03:07 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: irishsetter
Home Page: ~woof~


Thanks for the update.... and the good news that things are getting back to normal. More inside information that I received from some casino personel also stated that many of the new precision shooters (from last weekend) also seemed to be craps novices IN GENERAL, so not only were they holding up the tables with their shooting, they were holding up the game because of their lack of overall knowledge of the game.... Maybe I should create a C.A.T. (craps aptitude test) which a player must pass before moving into the dice influencing arena...forum

Post Date: 10/26/2001 12:36:21 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: heavy
Slogan: Get in, get it done, and get to the house.

MP -

The article is by sharpshooter - who I understand hangs with the PARR folks. He had an article in the last issue of Casino.com as well. The last article was more of a trip report. This one goes into some of the sets and the logic behind them. Haven't finished reading it yet - but I can say that the Casino.com people have done a fine job of presentation with this thing - some great art work - and all that glossy paper - which, of course, tells me the magazine is doomed to fail. All that stuff costs WAY too much money.

If you're interested e-mail me. I'll scan the article and send it to you as an attachment.


Post Date: 10/26/2001 4:47:20 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: biglou
Slogan: see you in pair-a-dice!

This article relates how "NOT" to behave when one is at the crap tables.
He repeatdly states to everyone within earshot as to his next shot and his buddies telling him how great he is. One can almost hear in the backgroud a chorus singing "How Great Thou Art".
Common sense would tell you or shout at you to keep a low profile and guess what: surprise,surprise - management shuts down the craps table. I recently had a monstor roll at the Horseshoe and someone asked me if I was a ------ graduate. I answered no,pretended not to know what he was talking about;however the intertuption disrupted my concentration and I sevened out. We as a group have to do somthing with these idiots that want to kill the golden goose.

Post Date: 10/26/2001 8:52:39 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: heavy
Slogan: Get in, get it done, and get to the house.

Well, I tried to scan that article and e-mail compressed copies to a couple of you guys - but my mail server just can't handle it - file too big. I've only scanned the article but the gist is this: Sharpshooter talks about how he once behaved at the table, calling his shots and hitting every hop bet - until they finally closed the table in mid-shoot. He says this was a lesson learned - and that he doesn't do that anymore.

He's definitely on the PARR role with the hardway set - though I have not finished the article - it appears the hardway set is the only one he talks about. He does go into set, pick up and delivery, velocity, angle, etc. Nothing particularly new there.

I'll probably have more thoughts on this tomorrow - after I've had a chance to study it a bit.

Post Date: 10/27/2001 5:35:51 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Jerry Patterson
Home Page: http://www.casinogamblingedge.com

The posts on this Board regarding dice setters showing off, etc. in the casino are referring to my PARR Class Members in Vegas last weekend. These are new, relatively inexperienced players who come to Vegas to take a weekend class.

For some, this is their first trip to a casino to apply their newly learned dice control skills from the Home Study component of their course.

They spend all day Saturday in the Classroom with Sharpshooter instructing PARR's five linchpins, and most of Sunday in the Dealer School practicing what they learn. On Sunday afternoon they are divided into 3-person teams, each coordinated by a PARR Veteran, to apply what they learned in the casino and get a "checkout" by the Team Coordinator. Then they return to the Dealer School for a debriefing.

We do teach in-casino protocol, but apparently, from what I gather in these posts, some players are just too exuberant in applying their newly learned dice setting and control skills.

These "rookies" are usually $5 and $10 bettors, so are not "hurting" any of the casinos, although that does not excuse their inappropriate behavior.

The $110,000 and $140,000 that mp mentioned in his article may apply to some of the PARR Veterans who come in on class weekends to hang out and impart their wisdom, but I doubt it. They know enough and are smart enough never to take that kind of money out of one casino. They usually play alone. Actually some are aware of the problems mentioned on this Board and have called them to my attention.

I will take all of the posts on this Board regarding these incidents in a positive way and institute the appropriate corrective actions.

Jerry Patterson

PS: Regarding the post about my instructor Sharpshooter's article in which he called his shots and had a table closed, for the most part he has toned down his flamboyant play. However, there was one incident last weekend where his flair for showing off did erupt. In the middle of a long hand, with a point of 10, the hard 10 loaded up with bets "for the boys," Sharpshooter setting for the hard 10, one of our players bet 6-4 "on the hop." "But what about the dealer action?" he asked. "We'll take care of them separate," the player replied. Sharpshooter set the dice for the 6-4 and rolled an easy 10 on the next roll to the great delight of the table. However, these incidents are rare and he usually goes unnoticed.


PPS: The dealers were taken care of after that roll.

Post Date: 10/27/2001 7:13:52 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Mad Professor

Hi guys,

I hardly ever "snip" articles when I respond to them, but for the sake of clarity, it seems necessary.

Jerry Patterson wrote:
"These "rookies" are usually $5 and $10 bettors, so are not "hurting" any of the casinos..."

Okay, what happens when a $5 newly-minted PARR graduate gets a good roll going. Other more experienced players usually know that this is the time to "load the table up." After all, this is VEGAS, BABY!

Billy had a fine Trip Report where he reported:
"The guy opposite Highlander...has a very deliberate routine with the dice...After about 20-25 rolls he brings back the easy 4...a guy gets a $20,000 or $30,000 marker...The table is now full...Now it gets great, I watch while the shooter tries for the four from 10:00 PM until 10:40 PM, that's right 40 minutes trying to repeat the damn four. Mr. Marker is at the table max in about 10 mins...At 10:40 the seven shows to finish his hour-long shoot...Mr. Marker must own Ballys,...A boatload of silver($5000) checks go to Mr.Marker, black to the Highlander,and I walk to the cab stand down a hundred..."

I checked with my friends at Bally's, that "non-hurting" hand cost a little over $170,000.

Gee, is it possible that one "teeny-weeny inconsequential $10 player" could cost one casino so much money? Of course it is, and THAT'S how a $5 or $10 player can bring a flaming inferno of heat to PARR graduates and all other setters alike.


Post Date: 10/27/2001 7:19:24 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Bob

So, in other words;

"we're so sorry that my children destroyed the beautiful Van Gough, and it's gone for good, but those who have seen it can tell you how wonderful it was...."

Post Date: 10/27/2001 7:22:08 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Anonymous

Well said!

Post Date: 10/27/2001 9:36:26 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: f.Leong
Slogan: rhythm dice setter

Serious dice setters that are winners are usually low key and try to avoid attention. They will go to various casinos and don't concentrate their action at one particular casino. The key for the
'loud mouths new comers' is;
Did they bet for the dealers? That is common sense thing to do especially when you are on a roll. They will overlook a lot of ill will if you bet for them too. forum, forum, forum,

Post Date: 10/27/2001 10:07:13 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: heavy
Slogan: Get in, get it done, and get to the house.

See above slogan.

'nuff said.

Post Date: 10/27/2001 2:08:07 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: john mcclung
Home Page: keep a low profile

Hey Irishsetter: I am new at this site,and I want you to know how much I enjoy reading the comments. I have recently retired and thought of learning a new hobby.(What better hobby than making money shooting craps.) I only get to play craps about 6 times a year. I have gotten a lot of information from you and others here. I sure hope that a few people will not ruin a good thing at the casinos for the rest of us,after all of the time that we have spent reading, studying and practicing dice setting and dice control.please warn those few to keep a low profile, and play smart. Thank you williebite.

Post Date: 10/27/2001 5:12:59 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: heavy
Slogan: Say hello to Mr. Hoover.

Semi-Official Proclamation by the Fat Boy:

In reality, the casinos do not sweat setters that much for a couple of reasons.

(1) Most setters put on a good act and go it alone.

(2) Most setters play the hit and run game and don't go back to the well so often as to cause a problem.

(3) Many setters lack the fundamental skills required to do serious damage to the casino.

(4) Many setters automatically increase their betting level on other setters (see #3, above) and end up losing more than they would have on a non-setter.

(5) Many setters bring additional business to the casino - the wife comes along and plays slots, the brother-in-law tags along and plays a little BJ.

(6) Hey, and we're good for the overall action because when the table gets hot more people get in the game - giving the casino the opportunity to rake even more money in when the seven eventually shows.

Plus we tip - which doesn't hurt either.

So don't sweat it. Go on out there and have a good time. Just don't be calling your shots for the world to hear (although it is tempting sometimes) - and everything will work out just fine.

Post Date: 10/27/2001 6:57:39 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Billy

Mp,Just to set the record straight about the Ballys roll.The shooter was not in my opinion a practiced precision shooter,I could be wrong of course but I dont think so.His routine was a superstious one.Picking up and dropping the dice repeatedly (like some do)until a good result occured(one duece showing without the other die being the five).He would then set the other duece on top and look at the three one.His tosses were ok but hardly precision quality,he wasn't a set em and shake em up guy,but the results were shotgun.I'm not surprised to hear of the high-rollers big win,he played BIGGG,and pressed BIGGG.But with his bankroll big wins can happen.Ballys had a $100 min table that night and the night before,Mabe for Mr.Marker?

Post Date: 10/28/2001 3:41:41 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Jerry Patterson
Home Page:

Of course I was referring to the "parr rookies" not hurting the casino, not the "Mr Markers" or big bettors his or her long hand may attract. The parr rookie should be focusing and concentrating on his form and stay oblivious to the heavy action on the table. Of course the parr rookie, or any dice setter or shooter for that matter, has no control over the heavy action or heat and, after sevening out, would probably pick up his winnings and walk to the cashier's cage while the "Mr Markers" are coloring up.

With a hand like the one you described at Ballys, I would hope that the "Mr Markers" would throw the "teeny weeny inconsequential $10 player" a couple of blackbirds at its end.

Long Arm

PS: Hey, I really feel sorry for Ballys losing those 170 big ones.

Post Date: 10/28/2001 8:37:03 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: 7th Wave
Slogan: Sounds Familiar to me/ or my 2 cents

Okay, now here is something that I've heard way to often and in fact I am sick of.. Favorite Boxman to me, "You can't Keep playin and shootin that way, as sooner or later, your gonna cost us a lot of money!!" Sound familiar ??
Now days, if he's Box, I refuse to play, just tired of listening to it.. As well as both die have to hit the back wall, while all other players don't, yada yada yada...
Are they worried or do they worry, I'd say Yep... Have I cost them money in the past Yep, n nope, most don't have enough brains to leave with it..
My answer to the problem, don't play if that guy is Box, and now I more or less just play by myself or with no more than 5 others.. This usually gets me off the hook as well, however if a certain B fella shows up, I guess I'll catch heck cause I'm playin anyway..
Oops, n I also usually just play for the min. passline ..

Post Date: 10/28/2001 2:13:01 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: heavy
Slogan: "Hard Six for the Shooter"

It has been my experience that unless your a 44D - the high roller at the end of the table will not be throwing any chips your way - regardless of how much money he made off your roll.

Post Date: 10/28/2001 5:51:48 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Roller

Heard about casino.com page 58.

Can we read this article on the web? I checked out the site but could not find a dice setting article.


Post Date: 10/28/2001 6:47:23 PM (Pacific USA) Edit
Author: heavy
Slogan: dealers got shoes

The site still has last month's mag posted. If you sign up for their Rat Pack club (all free - simply gives them your e-mail address so they can spam you) they'll give you a free subscription to the paper magazine.

You can't really cut an paste on the site because of copyright laws - but you can do a brief synopsis and review - perfectly acceptable.

I tried to scan and share copies with a couple of guys, but my mail server couldn't handle an 18 meg attachment - so I'm not sure how to handle that unless I break it down one page at a time, which gets fairly labor intensive for a guy who's not particularly e-savvy.

Thom - do you have a copy? What you might do is contact sharpshooter and ask for permission to reprint it - if his ego is as Jerry says, he might even like to have his own articles section. Just a thought ...

Post Date: 10/29/2001 7:57:08 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: irishsetter
Home Page: ~woof~


I'll see what I can do... but I have low hopes. I think casino.com stopped my subscription after the comments I made about their mag a couple months ago.

I do still have the handy drink coaster... um I mean online casino software CD-ROM they sent along with the summer issue....

Post Date: 10/29/2001 8:35:53 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Jerry Patterson
Home Page:

Spoke to Sharpshooter this morning re the casino.com article about the possibilities of his releasing his article now. He would prefer to wait until after Part 2 is published next month and then release, with casino.com's ok which shouldn't be a problem, either via this site or my site.

In the meantime, he suggests, go ahead and subscribe to casino.com (print) via the casino.com web site. I suggest requesting your subscription start with their second issue which contains Part 1 of his article.

Long Arm

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