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Please remember!  These are archives!  The Dice Setter message board was shut down. What is published here are just a few of the threads documenting the early days of dice setting strategies and opinions written by the pioneers of dice influencing.

Hardway Set for 7 Avoidance


Some players apparently use a hardway set for 7 avoidance. This is with the 1 -&- 6 as the axis for each die and the 2/2, 3/3, 4/4/ and 5/5 for the dice faces.

Any one use this set for 7 avoidance? There are different opinions on this. Some say it's NOT optimal for 7 avoidance as it results in 7's all the way around the 1/6 axis if one of the die turns twice more than the other!

But another point of view is that the set reduces the overall occurrence of 7 because a perfect axial roll is difficult and the 1/6 axial hardway set minimizes overall 7 occurrence when off axis movement occurs -- a frequent occurrence especially AFTER the dice hit the table and roll before coming to a stop.

Any thoughts on this?

Al Coates

I use the V-3 set almost always; sometimes a 2-4 on top. I don't yet consider myself a good precision roller, although I am getting better at it. I'd be very interested in what other shooters consider to be good sets to avoid the 7 or, alternatively, to bring on the 7. Thanks in advance.


I consider myself as the worlds worst precision roller. I practice different sets and take the results to the casino. All results are based on 540 throws of the dice (As Irishsetter said on his practice page). I use the all sevens set as a comeout roll when I am shooting from the Dont, 1 6 1 6 axis with the 4 and 3 facing up. I find using this set , I throw more craps and fewer naturals than any other sets I have tried so far. That makes this the best set for me on the comeout roll when I am shooting from the Don't. After the comeout when shooting from the don't , I use 2 5 ,2 5 axis and 6 6 facing up, with this set I get the most sevens.


Hey Roller -

I'm really glad you brought this up. This is the set that Sharpshooter touted in his article on dice setting in the Casino.com magazine a couple of months back - the article that had everyone so torqued over his Bally's session where they shut down the table on him. Anyway - he discusses the hardway set as one of the most powerful seven avoidance sets - thrown with the 1- 6 axis on both dice. As you know, with both dice are on the same axis there are 4 ways to make the seven on that axis out of 16 possible combinations of the dice. Let's assume you are throwing it with the hard six up - since Al mentioned that set. With the 6-1 on axis on both dice all of the hardway numbers are indeed available on axis. By rotating one die a quarter turn you now have the V-3's hardway set - with the hard 6 and 8 on axis - along with the easy six and eight - and the five, nine, three and eleven. But on the V-3's there are only two combinations that add up to seven - and there is the strength of that set.

In his defense, Sharpshooter said his skills were such that he could toss the dice on axis - with both dice moving thru the air as mirror images of each other - if he set for a hard eight he threw the hard eight. Whether or not he can do this consistently remains to be seen.

I have tried the hardway set as a come out roll with all of the hardways working - and have been quite successful with that move. But once the point is established I switch to a set that favors the point - while avoiding the seven.

Seems to me to be the sensible way to play.


Lets think about what we are trying to accomplish. If precision shooting is your goal then having the dice fly together and hit together and react together is what you should be working towards. If you can do that then the hardway set is a good one to use because of all the things that have been mentioned.

Now lets talk about most of us. If you cannot keep both die on axis consistently then the hard way set will work well for you because when the one die goes off axis then you have another axis in rotation. If you can keep the dice on axis but cannot control their rotation together then the flying V will work the best, because there are more inside numbers in rotation and the way the seven shows is by having the "pair faces" rotate 180 degrees from each other.

Having said that,I believe that if you can control the dice together in the air and after they land then the flying V is absolutely the way to set.Alot of shooters swear by the crossed sixes, I'm not one of them. In my opinion using the crossed sixes vs the flying V means you have traded two combinations that make six and eight for high, low, which during the normal course of the game are neutral numbers and are wasted tosses.I f I am "ON" and keeping the dice together, in the air and on the layout, I would rather see the hard six or eight that aces or midnight, because to make those two rolls of the dice pay you must make bets that fall in one roll if they don't win, hats horn, hi/lo or field. The only time place six and eight fall is when all of the do side bets fall.

So here's my take...If you are just starting the hardway set is a good one to start with. You will know right away if your tosses are on target because the hardways will show, and if one die is off axis then the 5/9 or 4/10 easy will show. If all you are doing is trying to control axis rotation without consideration to the dice rotating together, then any of the seven avoidance sets will be about equal, in that your chance of the bad guy is one in eight. If you can control rotation all the way to when the dice stop then using the flying V will result in the 6/8 showing most often.

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