Irishsetter

I responded to a thread on heavy's new board and have decided to cut and paste my post here for discussion:

Of course I'll cause heart attacks in dice influencing circles with the following statement.... but here goes.

The set itself is the least important and easiest to comprehend part of a precision throw.

The PICKUP/GRIP, THROW and MENTAL aspect are of much greater importance, ESPECIALLY to a novice shooter.  The 6 sets should be the LAST thing taught to an aspiring shooter.

I would guess that HALF of my practice throws are made not paying attention to the starting set of the dice.  I'm generally more concerned with seeing how quickly I can get my throw grooved in every night.

Knowing the distributions of the six sets has a lot of value, but for a shooter starting out, they really only need to know one come out set and one avoidance set.  As they develop a consistent throw, they will see how alterations can be made....but only once they've developed a consistent throw.  It doesn't matter WHICH iteration, which set, which dice face is up or down table a shooter uses until their throw is consistent.  And by that time, they're generally well acquainted with the nuances within a set distribution.  Signature numbers come with matching a given set with EACH INDIVIDUAL SHOOTER'S consistent throw.  The amount of arc, the amount of rotation etc.

I could show an accomplished shooter my iteration of the crossed sixes set, and they will get a different set of signature numbers than I get.

It's easy to get bogged down in semantics, and ponder the 1152 possible iterations (or whatever it is), but the reality is, without a consistent throw, the starting set (or axle) is useless.  

Shotputter

I haven't been over to Heavy's board yet, but I agree with Irishsetter here. Before I took the PARR class, I thought the set was most important. Now I see the grip, throw, mental and the other factors (environmental?) are more important than the set. The set is important, but only after you master the other factors.

Roninfla

Yep . I have to agree . A consistent throw and keeping your concentration  are the most important aspects .  I personally have a bit of trouble with the concentration part since I'm so poor , I can't afford to pay attention.

Dave

SORRY IRISH,
YOU JUST DON'T GET NO FLACK HERE !  WHEN FIRST STARTING MY PRACTICE SESSIONS - ONLY 6 MONTHS AGO - I USED TO CHART EACH NUMBER AND DICE ROTATION.  SOON REALIZED WHAT YOU HAVE JUST SAID -THAT IT DON'T MEAN A THING IF YOU AIN'T GOT THE SWING.  NOW I THROW  AND ONLY WATCH THE FLIGHT ON THE DICE.  WE CAN ALL BE TEXT BOOK PERFECT IN OUR KNOWLEDGE BUT IT DON'T MEAN CRAPS IF WE CONTROL THE BONES.  ENOUGH CLICHES FOR NOW

Nofieldfive

Irishsetter and Shotputter,

For the first 3 weeks following the PARR weekend I did not record a roll.  All I did was work on grip, delivery and flight of the dice to get the muscle memory thing happening.  When I was getting consistent throws I began to log the results.  I had used the 3V set as my primary set with the old self taught technique (with very mixed results, I might add).  Sometimes very very good and other times very bad.  Well I carried my favorite set (3V) over into my new grip and delivery.  The record speaks for itself.

I agree with what you say but the set is important when you are not getting perfect on Axis delivery.  Since I changed my delivery and grip and I am struggling with keeping both dice on axis.  I have used 2 different sets and logged the rolls.  Below is the summary.  Dominator and Heavy and others have given me tips on grip and delivery and the consistency is getting there slowly.  Along with the other factors mentioned (grip, throw, mental), the set, I believe, should be looked at and not just assumed that one is better than another because of the theory.  In theory the 2V, 3V, 6T should have better seven avoidance than a Hardway set.  But that is assuming the dice stay on axis and do not double roll out in relation to each other.  Before logging rolls I shoot for all the place numbers as a warm up using different sets Mini V, 3V, 6T.  But my records only log the 3V and the Hardway.  I usually record 120 rolls for each of these sets every night or every other night.  But I like to record both sets every session to see which one is working better for me under the same circumstances.  I work on the grip and delivery and mental aspect every practice session also because of the importance of each one.  

Hardway Set
Total Rolls = 530
SRR = 7.5

3V Set
Total Rolls = 720
SRR = 5

Total Rolls and SRR all Sets
Total Rolls = 1250
SRR = 5.8

The data indicates the Hardway set is the preferred set for seven avoidence for my delivery right now.  As my grip and release become more consistent, the data should indicate when the time is right to shift to the other sets available.

Strange Game.........but I love it!

Longa

as so many other player's, I can only agree on above comments. Only a consisted grip - throw-delivery, gives you the numbers. Any setting of dice before achieving this state is almost meaningless - oldies call them chicken feeder.  

Shotputter

No doubt the set is important. What I have been recording is the relative finishing position of the dice. To make things simple for myself I've seen shooting with the hardways set with 1-6 on both axis. I have a little mark on the "1" on the left die so I know which is which. Somewhere along the line (since I have it all in the computer) I'll translate it into what it would be had I used the different sets.

When we were in LV in March for the class I was changing my set depending upon what he point was and found keeping track of what I was doing was getting complicated and was getting me out of the Zone (I was in it at least once).

Irishsetter

Nofield...

It sounds like your throw still needs some work.  The thing I'm finding, is that regardless of the set (for avoidance) I'm getting consistent results.  (I don't use the hardways set for avoidance)

Nofieldfive

Irishsetter,

I agree that my throw needs work.  Every session I am tweaking something trying to improve the on axis results.  Tonight I shortened my backswing of the toss and it seemed to help.  The dice stayed together and on axis much more frequently.  Unfortunately I had to leave and did not get a chance to record the rolls.  But I was shooting to pick off the place numbers and using the varying sets with much success. I am headed out to the casino Wed night so I have to find something consistent and go with it this week.  I'll update with more information soon.

Dominator

Great Question! IMHO sets are just as important as anything else. If you are throwing on axis and and hitting primary numbers with the proper grip and toss you must use a set that will give you numbers

Nofieldfive

Ok,

I was able to record 240 rolls tonight.  I shortened the backswing and held the release position almost like a golfer holds the follow through to watch the shot.  121 rolls were using the Hardway set and 119 using the 3V.

Hardway Set
Total Rolls = 121
SRR = 6.72

3V Set
Total Rolls = 119
SRR= 7.93

Definite improvement.  More primary hits on both sets.  But not as many as I need to get.  I will continue to focus on grip, delivery, and mental aspect to gain the consistency that is required.

At least for this session the 3V set proved  to be the strong set as it should be.

Heavy

Just for grins - next time you're going to throw 240- toss 120 while pre-setting for the seven with the all-sevens set, and then do 120 pre-setting against the seven with the v-3 hard six.  Note the difference.  I did this about a week and a half ago - and the disparity was huge.  1-4 STR setting for the seven - 1-8.2 setting against it.  

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