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Please remember!  These are archives!  The Dice Setter message board was shut down. What is published here are just a few of the threads documenting the early days of dice setting strategies and opinions written by the pioneers of dice influencing.

Dice Sets: V-3's versus X'd 6's

The Man In Black

V3 (Flying V) vs. X6 (Crossed Six)

I would like to address an observation of mine. Perhaps those who use one or both sets would have noticed it as well.

I have had no luck (as it were) with the V3 set, and this is a bit unfortunate for myself as I am a big 6 & 8 place bettor. It seems that if one or both dice go off axis, there is a high propensity for the 7 to show, or at least a far less chance of the seven showing using the X6 set.

I can go all day with the X6 and the only reason I want to try to use the V3 is the high numbers of 6's & 8's, if the dice stay on axis. Anyone else got this trouble?


That's why I shoot the crossed sixes.  When I shoot a seven with the crossed sixes it is invariably the 6-1, because I've double pitched one die.  However, the V-3 seems to be an equal opportunity seven set for me.  I see them all - not just the 3-4.  Our friend Sharpshooter has done quite a bit of research on the topic of "secondary numbers" - numbers that roll when the dice get a quarter turn off axis in any direction - and "thirds" - numbers that roll when you get the double pitch or roll.  His conclusion - the safest set for MOST precision shooter is the hardway set with the 6-1 6-1 on the sides.  I haven't seen his new book yet - but I suspect when it gets out he'll have the charts on this included.  The negative, of course, is that the hardway set is just another permutation of the all-sevens set - which has four sevens on axis.  Frankly, it scares the heck out of me.


I find the V6 good end to end throwing if I dont get heat for not rolling them up to the wall .The crossed 6s I find are good from any position and good for lots of 10s thrown stacked from stick right .The V2 has always been a write off for me may as well throw from the darkside. The all 7s set with the 6s on top 5/2 facing down table performs as advertised 7s and horn #s point when set usually inside number. Amazing what a 1/4 turn of the dice can accomplish.


I've settled into practicing with crossed sixes, and like them a lot. Much more success than with the 3V or hardway sets.

However, which numbers are trouble with the crossed sixes...i.e, if i see a lot of _____, i know my throw is off? And which are the "bad" sevens?


I started with the V-3's but changed to the X'd 6's mostly because I throw it more consistently.  I've said this many times, the V-3's is a great set, it gives you more room for error, and is good for the risk adverse shooter.  With that said, for me the crossed sixes is like an old friend.  We've grown up together, and I know all it's quirks and faults...and I'm comfortable with it just the same.

Kelly, as to your question, the on axis seven for the crossed 6's is the 6-1, all others would be off axis.


This is an interesting topic. I’ve recently been practicing looking for 2 things out of my sessions.

1) A consistency from session to session. I haven’t been in the casino since PARR weekend so I’m looking to see if I can go to my practice box on a regular basis and duplicate successful and increasingly better results.

2) Instead of concentrating on what set I’m using, I look to track the relative position of the dice to each other and see what that would translate to in different sets. 1 night I may practice the V3 (my favorite), another the X6 (I’m a recent convert to it) and others the hardways or all 7’s. Whichever I use, I put the results into Excel and run some formulas which translate those results into what they would be using different sets. This way I can practice with the V3 but still be able to see what the same throws would have given me with the X6 or any other set.

Sometimes if I don’t like the way I’m throwing, I’ll just change the set to something almost random. I use the same set for every throw and when the results are entered into Excel as long as I give Excel the position of the dice I threw from, it will give me the correct results for a set. This way I don’t discourage myself with the actual numbers that I throw, so I can concentrate more on hitting primary and secondary “positions”.

Since starting this routine 2 weeks ago (I’m in training for my July Las Vegas trip), I’ve thrown about 2400 times. The results have been fairly consistent from session to session (1 really bad day and 1 really good one). The important thing is that I’m discerning what my signature “positions” are and I’m translating that into signature numbers for different sets.

If you see how your practice sessions are going relative to how dice are positioning themselves after you throw, you should be able to get a better idea as to which set is better for you without necessarily having to practice with each set.



You have an interesting approach to tracking your practice sessions.  I assume you use different colored dice and enter the toss results for each dice (left and right) to determine what "would" have been the result in you used different sets.

I find that my practice results are influenced more by my throwing technique than the set I use.  I am trying to build consistency in my ?toss technique?.  Without that consistency I will not achieve consistent results in the numbers thrown.

I find that if I DO NOT concentrate on EACH toss my consistency goes down the drain.  You can't be thinking about walking the dog or watering the lawn or a zillion other things and be consistent.

Golfers, bowlers, pool players, etc. do not become pro's by just hitting the ball, throwing it down the alley or shooting the cue ball at any old angle.  It takes concentration, and that's a big problem for me during my practice sessions.

That said, my favorite IS the flying V.  As I said in the article, The Big Easy, Trip Report Part II,  the flying V when thrown correctly results in a lot of 6?s and 8?s.  If the dice are going off axis consistently in the same way each time, the numbers coming up should be consistent also.  If the numbers you are throwing are not consistent, then it's most likely an inconsistent toss.  When my tosses are inconsistent it is usually my concentration that is at fault, which results in inconsistent tosses, which results in inconsistent results.


I don't use different color dice. I tried it and found it too distracting. The dice I have (both the ones PARR gave me and the ones I bought at Gambler's General Store) have different (but very close) production numbers on them. In any case, I take a thin Sharpie pen and put a black dot on the 1 pip, although I can generally figure out which die is which. But yes, it is important to track what the left die is doing independent from the right die. We think numbers when playing craps, but the reality is you are throwing two separate dice that interact with each other. Obviously the objective is to get both acting exactly the same way.

I totally agree. I try and concentrate on the components of the delivery and getting that right. If you get that right your results will be better. This is why I don't care what set I'm using during practice. I don't need to change the set if the practice session is not going well. I need to focus on the components of the delivery.

Also my favorite set because I like playing the 6 & 8. But now I can see what different sets will bring me based on my shooting. Instead of practicing with different sets to see how they work, I can just concentrate on my toss and figure out which sets will be best for the situation I'm in while shooting. I'm also starting to end my practice sessions with simulated hands. By that point in my practice session, I'm getting heat from the family about finishing practice. I've had my wife tell me to quickly finish up so I can do something for her. I told her I'd leave when I 7-out. Sometimes I 7-out right away. One time last week I threw another 20 times (V3) with her standing there yelling at me. After that practice session (when she finally calmed down) she told me she wants to go back to Vegas.



Would you mind sharing the excell formula's?  Sounds like a really good idea.   Glad to hear your wife approves<grin>.



I need to put it together so someone other than me can use it. When I clean it up I will post message.


Thanks Shotputer, I'll keep an eye peeled.  And congrats for figuring out how to compute that!


I like the Flying V much better than the crossed sixes---The flying V for me is a more forgiving set when one or more of the dice are off axle. Also since the Cross sixes produce so much trash (and I am not a horn bettor) it really is of no significance to me to use that set. The only numbers I place 99% of the time are the 6/8 so the Flying V is for me.

Black Cloud

UGHHH!! Dylan Brave, no like horn ?   8) Play Field, throw trash



I just don`t like any one throw bet     Dylanfreak ("I`m liberal to a degree-I want everybody to be free--but if you think I`d let Barry Goldwater move next door and marry my daughter--you must think I`m crazy)


For me the v3 works the best.   I think mainly because I keep the dice low – no more than 6” off the table, that I rarely get a double pitch.   If there are chips in the way of my shooting and I have to loft the dice a little higher, then there is the increased danger of one or both die popping up in the air & getting a double pitch.

I have been setting the left top - 3, left facing – 6, right top – 3, right facing – 2.   I rarely get a 3-4, 7 out.
Almost all my 7 outs are off axis 5-2 or 6-1.  Almost all my throws are a turn off one way or the other, unfortunately not always the same way, or one or both die are off axis.  If a hard 6 or 8 shows up I’ll go where did that come from.

For me the v3 is more forgiving & I get much longer hands than I do with the x6 or any other set.

I use the v3 exclusively for every roll.  I feel if I can make it on the come out to establish the point,  I should be able to make it easily a second time. (well sometimes not so easy)

After I am in the groove I very frequently throw about 24 times without a 7.  

PS: maybe the table composition has a bearing?  I usually shoot on hard tables at ac, such as Caesars, Resorts & the Marina

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