Please remember! These are archives! The Dice Setter message board was shut down. What is published here are just a few of the threads documenting the early days of dice setting strategies and opinions written by the pioneers of dice influencing.
I just read Mad Professor's latest article "Keeping a Good Thing Going", which provides some great advice.
One thing I can attest to is the courtesy at Paris, Bally's and Flamingo Hilton in Las Vegas (No, I do not work for Park Place) I usually stay at either Bally's or Paris with good comps. I have always been treated in a top notch fashion. I have seen those casinos get raped without heat or rudeness by the crew. They have been hit by precision shooters. Sometimes, the pit crew will hassle the boxman, but that's it. There is one thing that will disturb the crew; rude, drunk and obnoxious players. Otherwise, they have earned their tokes.
I've been told that I'm too conservative about when to pack up and leave after having success.
Case in point, last month in one of the downtown casinos I had a huge hand. All sorts of suits milling around, they checked the dice at least 3 times during my roll. When it was over I had made a nice score. The table had filled during my roll, and initially I'd hoped to get one more chance to throw. So, as the dice travelled around the table, I played pass or don't pass minimum, bare, and some occasional places bet if the shooter made a point. I was pretty much breaking even on the other shooters and the tenseness from the suits seemed to be fading. BUT, as the dice got close to me again, a gaggle of suits reappeared in the pit. THAT was my cue to skadoo.... I left before having another chance to shoot. Rather be safe than sorry...
For what its worth, my MO is hit (on and empty table) and run (when the table starts to fill up). This tends to keep my stay on any one table, and in any one casino, pretty short. This dovetails quite nicely with keeping a low exposure.
Irishsetter brings up a very good point.
Sometimes you will throw a very hot hand, and they'll take a fair bit of interest in you and the dice. Of course the casino wants to make sure that it is "randomness" that is kicking their butt, and not something more dangerous.
So on the second "go round", they will re-gather to watch your next set of throws. Irishsetter picked the perfect time to "get outta Dodge".
Last week I was at one of the medium-sized casinos that I mentioned in my new "Keeping A Good Thing Going" article. I had thrown an outstanding hand, and I too wanted another shot at the dice again.
Sure enough, as the dice are one player away from me, out trots the Pit Boss along with the PB's from two adjoining pits, together with the Casino Shift Manager.
I figured that if I left, it would be too obvious...so I did the next best thing. I shot with a minimum bet on the line and promptly set for and got a quick 7-Out. The "suits" shrugged their shoulders as if to say, "What's the big deal", and they walked away.
Needless to say, I'll keep my hits at that joint to a "one-shoot-then-scoot" approach for the forseeable future.
I was at Greektown in Detroit earlier this year and jumped on the newly opened empty table. I started with a hot hand (about 32 rolls) and then people gathered and the table went cold. When the dice reached the shooter to my right, they raised the minimum from $5 to $10 starting with me. That was my signal to vamoose. If I used the BBMW hit and run approach and left as soon as the table filled up, I would not have wasted time making my transition to the dark side.
Well, I dont have any casino heat to report. I have been to play craps 12 different days over the past 4 weeks. In that time period, I have been welcomed at empty tables, I have rolled hard tens for the Boys, I have added house odds to my bets beside my free odds bets. All i find between 4 different casinos is very friendly boxmen, stickmen, and dealers even the pit bosses comping me very nicely on the buffets etc. I have had pit bosses standing there watching me roll very nice hands, and I've seen the same pit bosses watching the same person hold the dice for 45 min to an hour. I've seen after someone with a hot hand finally 7 out, the boxman exclaim to all people at the table "be sure to color up...do not leave this table until you color up"...shoulda seen how low the chips were on the table after 2-3 hot hands inna row. Just like I have just read in these posts tho, they do not tolerate drunk , obnoxious people that are a distraction to other people. I have seen guys with microphones on their head and all kinds of important stuff hanging off their belt take drunks off to the side and change their attitude about acting like that. I say all this to say....."have you toked your dealer today"? All I get is the dice set back for me the same way I'm setting them. Granted I dont do it 7 days a week, only 3. I win 4 outta 5 trips and I'm working on that 5th one as to turn it around also. Anyhow, maybe its just me...maybe I just dont live in an area thats overrun by derandomizing shooters burning the tables up. Beats me, in my short experience tho, I find it to be a very enjoyable experience and the crews or pit bosses have yet to make it anything but that. I do agree with the mad professor and Irish tho, you have to know when the time is right and theres no use in cooking the goose thats laying the golden egg =)
I've adopted the rule of thumb of never hitting any single casino for more than $1K on a single session.
A little here, a little there!
I dunno why but in Vegas I get a lot more heat than in AC . I played in a lot of "small " local casinos and I always bought in for under a hundred bucks and left with a small win ($40-100) and I toked the dealers and made money for them but I still felt the heat from the pit .It seems like some casinos dont like small winners (or any winners for that matter)at all .
Like BBMW, I am a hit and run guy and am always looking for empty tables to play on. When I have a good roll its not uncommon for the suits to stand by and watch when Im shooting . I dont really consider it heat unless they say "dont throw the dice like that sir"besides Im too busy focusing on my task at hand on setting the dice and making my point to care what people are saying about me .
To this day in one particular casino where Im known to have long shoots the suits will watch and stare at me intently when Im about to shoot.One guy even stands right behind me to see how im throwing them. I try not to get too greedy and leave after my roll even if I seven out without making my point just to keep the pit happy .
vegas dealer mistakenly branded you as a "flea". Vegas is a flea-hater town, and they are unforgiving. You should have gone with that man to Ceasar to shoot craps when he invited you, here is why. There is this whale that is a regular at Bellagio, he is known as TAK. Before Bellagio, TAK was a regular at Mirage, Mirage setup their table one side "RESERVED" with half of the table rack full of TAK's chip, the other side "$5" minimum. TAK always play alone, players just watch him, intimidated by the massive chips that TAK has, until this daring white middle age guy (WMAG) join-in with red chips. WMAG bet $5 passline and shoot after shoot and most of his roll are medium size (20s~30s but no short point seven). Everything did well for TAK and strangely no other players join. When Bellagio opens and they took TAK, he was even there during the opening day, I think I saw him on the 3rd day (I was busy lining for the MAGABUCKS). the setup at Bellagio is different, one side is a "TAK" sign, the other side "$500 minimum". Twice TAK got killed, one time i watched the whole game and TAK lost $280,000 (quarter of a million). Then the table setup got changed, both sides has the "TAK" sign and enter WMAG. On one occasion, TAK brought with him 2 fellow high rollers and WMAG 2 WMAL (white middle age ladies, one blond, one dark hair) The dark hair one does not shoot, but blond is chicken feeder type but rhytmic roller. She got couple of short roll but she got one long roll. to my estimate, Bellagio lose around 100,000 to 120,000 on that session alone. So, Krue, on your next trip to Vegas, you might be the next WMAG (not literaly).
Although I was surprized by the casinos' open acknowledgement and unstated permission to set and precision-throw the dice when I was in Vegas, I lost about $600. My guess is that the casinos see a lot of dice setters and welcome them right along with the guys with astrology amulets and their lucky rabbit-feet key rings.
However, I understand exactly why a pit boss would watch even a $40 to $50 winner who carefully arranges the dice and then carefully and precisely throws them.
I now practice putting a set together with the least amount of motion possible. I do not want my setting to be an event. I'd like to win $40 to $50 and be just another Bozo out on the town. I want my throw to be smooth and natural, not a construction project with distinct steps and methods readily apparent.
Every now and then I'll hear someone say that dice setters will never be barred, and yet we hear some of these same people tell us that some casinos have "no dice setting" signs, or that Reno does not allow dice setting, or that the Indian Casino demanded harder throws, or that a table got closed down, or that someone got escorted out of the casino.
If we don't practice making our skill unobtrusive and natural looking, then we probably have no intentions of going professional. We would naturally fear to risk our entire livelihood on the casinos' continued largess in allowing very obvious dice setters.
The good news is that those of us who do practice making our skill look natural will not be affected whenever dice setting gets barred. We'll be the Ordinary Joes who still get lucky, long after the dice setters have become fun bouncing practice for the bored, refrigerator-sized security guards.
The Las Vegas casinos won't ban dicesetting because the increased interest produces more wannabes than true precision shooters. For every new Mad Professor, there are about 100 new losers. It's kind of like a golf course giving a big prize for a hole in one, or a bowling alley for a 300 game. To the casino, it is still a random game.
On the other hand, card counting in blackjack is not tolerated because it is easier to learn than effective precision shooting. Besides, card counters usually win a lot of money before they get caught. Once they get caught, they need a Hollywood disguise to get into any casino.
They don't care about setting because a fairly large percentage of the dice throwers at any casino set. I very often see people setting when I play. However, they invariably chickenfeed. They carefully set the dice, an then just pick em (ie. no controlled grip), more often then not shake 'em up, and wack 'em down the table. I have yet to see anyone else at a table that looked to me like they were attempting a true controlled throw (well, acutally there was one guy, but you get the idea). If they banned setting, they'd piss off many, many more random rollers than they'd stop precision shooters.
All the setter/chickenfeeders are good camoflage for us. I suspect the grind joints that have the "no setting" signs are more worried about game speed than precision shooting. At low limits, I can see where craps could be a pretty low margin game for the house, mainly because it's VERY labor intensive. I've never been in a normal to high end casino that EVER gave me heat for anything other then throwing short.
"On the other hand, card counting in blackjack is not tolerated because it is easier to learn than effective precision shooting. Besides, card counters usually win a lot of money before they get caught. "
I'm going to disagree with this one. Counting down a deck of cards at home is one thing. Counting down a six deck shoe on Saturday night with six players at a held game - side counts, running counts, true count. Not only is it not easy to do CORRECTLY - very few players have the bankroll to capitalize on it when they do get a narrow advantage. You have to be able to range your bats fomr 1 to 12 units or so to really get a strong position against a 6 decker - which immediately causes a shuffle up in most casinos. Yeah, there are some very good BJ players - and TEAMS out there - often making significant $$ - and often working WITH a dealer who is on the take. But I can tell you for a fact - I've set at the table with players who were openly talking about card counting - and exchanging information about what the true count and running count were - and no one ever said a word about it. Of course, they were losing . . . but that IS the point.
I don't think card counting is easy. But, it's all mental. Precision shooting, on the other hand, is mental and physical with bets being managed at a faster pace. Shooting requires more poise given the pressure, distractions and heat. But, it is certainly more enjoyable when a comfortable level of money is at stake.
Just Got Back from Vegas and Got some Heat at the Smaller Casino`s. Sunset Station was all over me to hit the wall with Both Dice and then to hit it Harder Sir. I had the Dealers on the line with Shoes and piggybacked on All of my hard ways. I had hit 2 Hardways for them and pressed them by 2.00 and then Hit my Point. I put them on the Line again and gave them shoes and that is when the heat turned up. Not one other player toked the Dealers in the Last Hour and here I was Putting them on the Line and The Hard ways and this (Shit Boss ) start`s on me. I had found a sweet spot that was giving me a dead Cat And I just Kept hitting it. I was only up about $250.00 as I was playing very Coonservativly. Well he call`s the Dice Back as I am About to Shoot and Just Stares at me and Say`s Sir Hit the Wall Harder!!!!!!!!. I just Look at him and say Take Me down on all my bets INCLUDING MY PIGGYBACKED HARDWAYS... I TAKE MY ODDS OFF AS WELL AS THE DEALERS. I make eye contact with the Dealers and they just put their head`s down. For some reason Nobody says anthing to the Shit Boss and they were all making money . I just pick up the dice and toss them so hard that they rest up againt the other Side of the Wall winner Hard 8 pay the Line!!!!!. I take my pass line bet and walk away. What an A...hole..
I had my best shoot`s on the Strip and there was never Any heat at All...
It did get me off My game (The Shit Boss ) so I guess that it worked for him. I think that I will try there again but on a Different Shift.
I also got heat at one of the Station casinos .
I was in the middle of a good shoot and the pit started giving me heat .I was hitting the back wall so they couldnt say anything to me about that ,but one of my throws happened to barely touch the fingers of a man who was at the tables end. Needless to say the boxman called "No roll".Everyone including myself was upset because the dice came up with the point I was setting for a hard 10.
The man who touched the dice argued about the call with the boxman but the boxman just snickered and looked slyly at the dealers and said "sir its a no roll you touched the dice" .
At that point I didnt know what to do ...Should I stay and play or just walk away?...
I decided to play and I guess I was still confused about that whole incident cuz I couldnt get focused again and ended up sevening out after the next three rolls .
One interesting note is that I tend to get a lot more heat in the "smaller"casinos than the "big"ones on the strip and where I usually play at AC.I think next time I play in Vegas Ill take the advice some people shared on this thread and stick with the "big"casinos .
But I thought "smaller" was "friendlier"...
I guess that motto applys only in Claridge in AC not in the casinos of Las Vegas.
I like the strip on weekdays (Sun-Thurs).
When I go to Vegas, I usually book 3 nights with good comps. I have no trouble finding $5 tables during the day and sparsely populated tables in the morning. I have never experienced heat (just some incompetence at NYNY and Venetian).
I usually switch to blackjack when I want to sit down--then return fresh to the craps table. If I have a bad session at the craps table, I definitely switch casinos. By 5:00pm, I am done with craps and ready for my pre-dinner cocktail during conservative blackjack play. I never consume alcohol when playing craps. With most of my craps activity during the day on the strip, I get good treatment and avoid the drunk and obnoxious.
Got some Heat at the Smaller Casino`s. Sunset Station was all over me to hit the wall with Both Dice and then to hit it Harder....toked the Dealers ....a sweet spot that was giving me a dead Cat And I just Kept hitting it. ....he call`s the Dice Back as I am About to Shoot and Just Stares at me and Say`s Sir Hit the Wall Harder!!!!!!!!.
There was a dickhead pit slime at the Horseshoe who insisted I do the very same thing.. I hear he's since been fired from the shoe so I wonder if the staion hired him?
the boxman just snickered and looked slyly at the dealers and said "sir its a no roll you touched the dice" .
At that point I didnt know what to do ...Should I stay and play or just walk away?...
this is perhaps where I differ from the general concensus.. I fire back... The pit and crew are so used to their tactics working you can rock them back on their heels by retorting.. I had the Imperial Palace insinuating I was taking too long to set and throw... so I told them I was not and began counting "one...one thousand, two.. one thousand, three...onethousand" and graphically demonstrated I was not taking more than 3 seconds to shoot. I've told pit slime "hey money's involved here"! when they instruct me to hit the wall harder. I think a little less passivity in the dice shooting community is warranted.
Right on, brother!
Have you guys been seeing an upward progression on the heat level on people who may look like their controlled throwing, or has there always been some constant level of head for people who the suits might think are trying something (in this case correctly)?
I have to say, in my (admittedly somewhat limited number of) trips, I haven't gotten any heat other than the procedural hit the back wall stuff. Even that is inconsistantly applied.
I just spent two nights - three days in Shreveport/Bossier and I can tell you I saw absolutely NO heat - the there were dice setters everywhere. The ONLY time anyone got pregnant doged at was when they hit the glass.
I DID see several players cautioned for throwing the dice TOO HARD. On one occasion at the Horseshoe the player threw them so hard they bounced off the wall and hit the box man's hand - cutting his finger. As the floor person helped him but a bandaid on he advised the shooter that if he threw them like that again it would be his last time to shoot at the shoe.
Here's a great story. Playing at the Isle of Capri - enjoying chatting with the box guy and making a few small wins for the boys and bals - I tossed the dice down and one comes up three. The other is leaning against the wall -with the four showing up - the six leaning against the wall. The stick calls "seven out" and the box man jumps up and says "No - roll's not over yet." Then he leans over the table in the direction of the leaning die (and bumps the table with his thigh) and the die rocks back off the wall and comes up NINE.
"Nine," calls the box man. "See - you had to give the dice time to make up their minds."
Hardways for the boys.
I posted this over on Heavy's board but some of you might find it of interest.
Certain operational procedures occur in casinos at the dice tables that some perceive as heat.
Crews of dealers are changed at various shift changes that may or may not be the same as the blackjack shift times. Usually the shifts are: 2am till 10am (graves), 10am till 6pm (days), 6pm till 2am (swing). Some joints use 3am-11am, 11am-7pm, and 7pm-3am.
There are four dealers to a crap crew. Three are at the table and one is on a twenty minute break. When the break dealer comes back he (on the hour, twenty after and forty after the hour) taps the stick person on the shoulder and replaces him . The stick person goes to 2nd base (to the right of the box person) and the 2nd base dealer goes to 3rd base (to the left of the box person). For some craps crews the base dealers are on duty for 40 minutes. This means the stick person will alternate relieving the 2nd base and 3rd base dealers
Shortly before the shift changes the box will have a count of the bank. This count is overseen by a pit supervisor and pit boss. This count will stop the game and all dealers will bring it in. The count is verified by all three money counters and the game is allowed to continue. Sometimes this count will trigger a fill. At or shortly after the time of the count the security personnel will change the drop box.
Another informal count will occur when a box person is relieved. This count is usually just of the high value cheques.
Another change that occurs when the shift changes, at most casino dice tables, is the change of the dice. A new stick of dice (usually 5 dice) is brought into the game by the box person and the prior dice are removed. The new dice have been measured by a micrometer (miked), examined, checked for square, spun on a spinner by two corners, and each die marked by a pin prick in the same location (on the five center spot, above the ace spot or any unique location) to identify them as being placed into the game by the casino personnel. When brought into the game they are generally placed in service after a shooter sevens out. The box person is fairly subtle about the change.
You can tell when the dice are changed by noting the numbers that are on the current set of dice and checking from time to time to see if they change.
Do new dice make a difference?? I think they do. Heavy and I were having a struggle during an early morning session and at about 2am and were ready to give it up. I made the comment that we should wait for the dice change. We did and our next few hands turned the session from a losing proposition to a very profitable session.
Fills are at the whim of the box and pit supervisor and could be heat. Watch the bank to tell. If you can see lint and dust the fill is legitimate. Down to one row of red stacks it is OK.
"Fills are at the whim of the box and pit supervisor and could be heat. Watch the bank to tell. If you can see lint and dust the fill is legitimate. Down to one row of red stacks it is OK. "
Could you elaborate? I don't think I get the last two sentences. Are you saying that if so many chips were won off the table you will see the lint and dust that has collected between the stacks at the back rows . . . that would normally be hidden from sight by the more-forward rows of stacks? And that if the table is down to one row of red stacks, then no need to presume heat?
In any event, what of it? If the only "heat" is a fill, but no other interference for setting - that doesn't seem to bode badly. Sounds simply like superstitous pit critters trying to interrupt a "hot" hand. If it were during my own hand, it may interrupt my concentration a bit, distract from the task at hand. Is that what you mean. But again, the worst that could happen from this "heat" is a seven-out. Maybe, on a fill, it's time to pull bets down or regress sharply. . . see what evolves. But still, may be able to get the dice again, or follow another precision shooter after the fill is over.
Your thoughts would be most appreciated.
I know a guy that has been banned from shooting craps at Sunset Station. Very strange.
Personally, I have only been reprimanded for not hitting the back wall. I have never had anyone tell me to throw harder.
I have had a couple of Stick Persons be annoying. I don't know if they were trying to bother me or just being their everyday self. When I picked up a dealer bet at the Bellagio, the stick man told me it was a contract bet. We had a disagreement about that and I left the table.
"Are you saying that if so many chips were won off the table you will see the lint and dust that has collected between the stacks at the back rows . . . that would normally be hidden from sight by the more-forward rows of stacks?"
You pegged it right on. In a hot hand the bank get depleted if there is heavy action. They don't really want the player to color up just then as it would slow down the game so they bring in a fill for more pay outs. I love it when I get to see lint in the bank.
The pit critters will call for a fill if the see a hand in the making in hopes of breaking it up.
BBMW wrote:I very often see people setting when I play. However, they invariably chickenfeed. They carefully set the dice, an then just pick em (ie. no controlled grip), more often then not shake 'em up, and wack 'em down the table.
Those shooters look natural but for the dice setting. You may actually be complimenting a skilled shooter every now and then on his or her 'naturalness.' I believe that it would be absolutely wonderful if my skill looked so natural that even a highly skilled dice setter would say of me, "another dumb-ass lucky chicken feeder." It's a goal.
Hehehe. Yeah, you could be right. That would be something to behold (or, even better, to not behold).
However, on a percentage basis, I tend to think most of them are feeding the chickens. Even if they're successfully camoflaging the grip, the actual flight of the dice has to follow a certain pattern in order to achieve a certain level of control. I think that would stand out to someone who is looking for it.
On the general subject of heat, I was down in AC this week (see separate trip report post). I wasn't making any attempt at camoflage. I had some good throws. Some of them were good enough that the few other players at the table were passing the dice back to me when I did eventually seven out. None of the table crew or the suits said a word.
The only thing vaguely resembling heat that I got was when, in the middle of a particularly good session, I had a gratuitiously short stick-em winner. The pit boss said that 'they' (I guess the eye) would be calling him about that one.