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Cycling Up

Please remember!  These are archives!  The Dice Setter message board was shut down. What is published here are just a few of the threads documenting the early days of dice setting strategies and opinions written by the pioneers of dice influencing.

Irishsetter

Well, we're a few weeks out from the Sept. seminar. I'd only been practicing a few times a week in August, but I'm now in the "cycling up" mode.... Would like to get in about 30 hours of practice in the next 2 1/2 weeks.

For lack of a better name, I call it cycling up because in addition to more hours, I hit the practice table with more intensity as well. Having adopted several techniques from the books I mentioned in the August newsletter, I am approaching the next few weeks with greater dedication and vigor...... I'm doing a great deal of work on bringing intensity to the table, which I feel is a distinctly different issue than what we refer to as the zone.

In addition, as I mentioned awhile back, I've changed sets, and am almost solely throwing the mini-v after come out. I'm quite pleased with the results I've been getting. (I have to admit though, I kind of miss all the "trash" numbers from the crossed sixes...)

For those attending the Sept. seminar, I'm looking forward to meeting you...
~woof~

Golfer

After going thru a tough year and a bad case of the point 7's I got some tips from Heavy and Linaway and have been doing better. I am also now using the mini-v after the point is established and starting with the outside #'s. It is really working well for both cash and for 7 avoidance. Had a couple of good sessions that I posted about on Heavy's board. I enjoy the higher payouts on the outside.

Sorry I can't make Vegas. Knock'em dead.

Heavy

Hey Golfer -

The mini-V turned out to be one of the most successful sets at the Tunica clinic. I'm just about finished with the player critiques - and I can tell you some of the best series we sall - with TONS of fours, tens, and hardways, were tossed with the mini-V set.

BTW, Irish - I too have set up the old practice table. Spent about twenty minutes this afternoon tossing from straight out at twelve feet. Very nice results. I'm seriously working on alternate shooting positions so I can have an easier time finding a table to play in Vegas. I'm afraid my playing time will be limited this trip due to time constaints, but I do want to max table time when given the opportunity. I'm thinking Saturday morning may be our best shot.

Irishsetter

Heavy,

I've seen good results with the mini-v, the problem is in finding a good betting strategy. Since there is an even distribution over all the point numbers, you REALLY have to rely on signature numbers over what should be wagered on based on the set. (ie, V-3's = bets on the 6 and 8)
(see the set distributions here: http://www.dicesetter.com/hh/heavy10setchart.htm
Every set I throw, I seem to have quirks though. For instance, when I throw the crossed sixes, I throw a ton of hard 10's which is not in the distribution. For the mini V, I throw the hard six a lot. Again, not in the distribution.

I too practice from straight out, using the 3 fingered front - diagonal grip. At times I can REALLY shoot the lights out from straight away. It pays to be able to shoot from anywhere on the table. ....

Steve

Irish, re betting the mini v, all the numbers across should work in theory, but seems too risky to me. What do you think about come bets?

Irishsetter

Steve,

I'm not a come bet fan..at all. Although I've dabbled a bit with the Krigman Come Martingale (look in the strategy area here: http://www.dicesetter.com/strategy/strategy.htm )You're correct that betting across is too risky without sufficient bankroll. If I throw enough winners, I definitely spread my wagers across.

The Anything But Seven also seems a logical choice, but I HATE a wager that waters down a winning bet, which occurs if you throw a 5,6,8 using the Anything But Seven strategy. I've come up with something that takes advantage of my signature numbers for the mini-v, but I'm still in the testing phase.

Golfer

I am really in a conservative mode right now and will start with $30-40 outside and same bet the 1st & 2nd hit and then start pressing. I have had streaks where I started to throw a lot of 6's and just start up on that with the payout from a hit on the outside to have it covered. If the 6 or 8 are the point I don't even think about it too much and just focus outside.

The real fun is getting going on the 4 & 10 with buy bets. I haven't bought the 5 or 9 yet but want to as I gain more confidence and momentum during a roll.

If I do throw a horn I follow it up with a horn and that sometimes does well.

Let me know about that strategy you are working on when you can.

goodh20

I've been having some success with the mini-v, but I start out with the 6-5 on top.

I play 66 inside and take one hit and down to 6 on the 6-8 and hope for the long roll. I have notice and taken advantage of the field numbers on the longer rolls and it has been very profitable.

I plan on betting the 4-10 a little more, I have started so many sessions throwing a four the dealers where asking me if I wanted to be it.

The staight 6's is my come-out set with a 5 dollar horn high 1-2. I had a session 2 weeks ago where I threw 2-12-12-12 a couple of other numbers and 7 out for a $325 win. I was shaking I was so pump I went out for a paper and to get my composure back and came back in and threw 2-12-12-12-2-3-11-4. I was betting the field after the second roll and had my bet at 80 dollars and the field after the second 12. I had bought back in for 75 and never made my point 7'd out after about 5 rolls and colored for 1150. 1400 for the day. I'm all for the "Field Posse".

Hey Steve and Golfer, If you want plenty of throws the Blue Chip in Michigan City has mostly 5 dollar tables and I'm there most Sunday mornings. I have opened the table every time at 8 in the morning. Short tables and good crews. Very few people there at 8 in the morning.

I won't be making vegas.

Nofieldfive

When using the mini-V you have to bet the 4 and 10. The problem I have seen with the set is when to bring down or regress. As was pointed out the primaries are 4 and 10 but the secondaries are 6, 8, 5and 9. Do you bet the outside only, or should you bet across the board? At some point you should regress or bring down something because of the exposure. Billy and I have been discussing this strategy since June and the jury is still out on the best way to exploit this set. I am interested in anyone's suggestions.

Golfer

Chuck great play congrats. Next time experiment with a $2-4 Hi & Low. Press or parlay that 1st hit. Your exposure is limited and a 2nd hit on either after a parlay would be some real cash. Even pressing to $5 or $10 each would be fun.

NoField 5 I have run both ways with the mini-v. Some times all I get is outside. On other rolls the 6 just keeps popping. I usually start with the outside and if that 6 starts hitting add it and run with it. The numbers are great but the big point is the 7 avoidance results with this set for me. Longer rolls give me more chances at some good stuff happening.

Another thing I want to try but forget everytime is to throw out an Army bet and see where I could go with it.
The mini-v is perfect for that play.

Irishsetter

Nofield,

I'm probably somewhat in the minority, but I feel the terms "primary/secondary hit" to be nice description terms, but are not a good indicator for what you should or should not wager, IMO. Based on practice, each individual shooter should be able to determine their own signature numbers for a given set. Second to that, each shooter should give some consideration to the distribution for the set. As I said, the distribution for this set is even across the board, 2/16 for each of the point numbers....

The reason I don't put much emphasis in primary/secondary is that I've honestly only seen a few shooters who can maintain rotational equilibrium of the dice to much extent. Many people will say that they got "a primary hit" but they really don't have any idea whatsoever whether the dice maintained rotational equilibrium or whether one die rotated 4 or 8 or 12 rotations in comparison to the other die.

After a couple thousand throws of the mini v, I currently have a + 19% variance on the 4, + 28% variance of the 6 and a +30 % variance on the eight. I've reduced the appearance of the 7 by around 30%. So you can see what my betting strategy SHOULD be based on my throws. (I have - 20% variance on the 10) If I get the chance, I'll post some practice data soon.


As far as your question about going down, I believe in regression, but I don't believe in taking your bets fully off the table.... unless your session bankroll is in dire straits.

Golfer

Thom your figures are really interesting for the 10. What variation are you using? What's on top and facing? I usually equal out 4 v. 10 or close to it.

Heavy

Parlay the first horn hit. Press each subsequent hit. After seven in a row - color up and head for the topless review.

Irishsetter

Golfer,

The configuration for the mini-V I've settled on is:

Top: left die 6, right die 2
facing: left die 2, right die 4

Sixes and eights all around.....


ALL my sets, mini-V, crossed sixes and straight sixes have 6 and 2 on top. It's a bit of a camouflage thing.

roadrunner

I guess I have to put my two in on this mini V discussion.

When I first tossed a few with Irishsetter I was using the mini V in to form of Zeke's AC set (6 up 5 facing and 5 up 4 facing). After listening to the experts telling me that the "hardway set is more forgiving" I tried HW for a while, as well as some other sets such as V3 ^3 X-6's. It may have been coincidence but poor casino sessions, with the exception of a 73 toss hand with the V3, have resulted in a return to the AC mini V as of late. The average number of tosses per hand has increased since the return. A recent trip to Vegas yielded an average of 11 for 55 hands.

The only problems I seem to have are 1) hitting 4's and 10's and not being on them and when I get on them the devil is showing up on the very next roll with disturbing regularity 2) getting trash numbers 3 11 and some 2 and 12 betting the horn only to toss a box number and then back to trash.

On the good side I have turned many a $5 four and ten into $25-$50 four and ten and locking up along the way when they come.

I will experiment with Irishsetter's 6 up 2 facing and 2 up 4 facing and see what it brings.

Golfer

I played around with Irish's set a little last nite and yeah the 6 & 8 were showing. But for me that poses a problem. I usually cover the 3 or 4 outside numbers, depending on the point to start and press along the way. Using this set I need more cash on the table. I guess what I really need to do is chart some practice sessions and, like Thom calculate the %'s, then re-evaluate.

Roadrunner, I think you made a great point as to the 7 avoidance potential of this set for a lot of people. That is the main focus.

Irishsetter

Golfer,

Given the appearance rate of the 6 and 8, it's easier and more prudent for to do a "spread" strategy, starting inside and working my way outside as a hand progresses (hopefully). I was very surprised at the number of 6/8's that I threw when I started, but pleased as I can limit my risk... and less trash than the X'd sixes.

JJ

I have just recently switched from the crossed sixes to the mini V...because my numbers are a little better. I still like the crossed sixes but feel I now have two sets that I feel comfortable with. I don't like the flying V,s I have never done good with them.. I do feel like my attitute with the flying V's is not good. I try to get in the groove with them but to no avail....... know what I mean?

By the way...... While In Tunica I mailed myself a postcard saying.... Emergency... come back right away. Just got it.... so Tunica hear I come..... Don't I wish.... Another by the way... All the guys/girls in Tunica saw my front License plate on my car.... A pair of dice with the saying "Lets Roll" next to the Dice...

Must say really neat.....

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