Dice Coach & Instructors / Newsletter / Contact / Home




Dice Setter


Dice Setter



Your Instructors








Dice Setting


Basic Rules




Dice Setter  Archives




Mad Professor







Craps Strategies




Featured Article


Craps Table Plans


Private Lessons


Casino Dice Survey

  Dice Discussions  

Craps Book




Best and Worst




Contributing Authors


Message Board











On Backspin
A Roundtable Discussion 


As a newbie to the ranks of dice setting I have experimented with a number of grips and tosses and noted my practice results.
As suggested, I use 2 different colored dice during my practice sessions so I can determine if the dice are staying on axis and if not which die is going off axis.  I believe using two different colored dice is essential and should become a part of your practice session.
There has been a lot of talk about the "dead cat bounce", whatever that may be. (I have yet to find anyone who has actually thrown a dead cat and observed the bounce.)  I asked my wife what her interpretation of a "dead cat bounce" would be.  She said it would be like a "plop", not much bounce at all.  I asked her if she had ever thrown a dead cat and I got that look that indicated the conversation was over.  
No matter what grip I practice with, when I attempt to achieve a landing that has little bounce, my results are inconsistent.  I usually use 1000 to 1500 practice trials before giving up on a grip/throw combination.
My latest practice is using the "ideal" grip coupled with a clockwise rotation.  The clockwise rotation means that the dice will rotate towards you as you throw them.  I shoot from either end of the table and like Heavy, the longer the table the more rotation. (faster)
Actually, it was in Yuri Kononenko’s book "Dice Control for Casino Craps" that it talks about a "fast" rotation.  It was only when I included the fast rotation in my throw did I begin to achieve practice results that were consistent.  So far my practice record with this combination (ideal grip with fast clockwise rotation) has been 54 throws before a seven appeared.  
It appears that the fast rotation helps keep the dice on axis.  I was actually amazed at the consistency with which the dice stayed on axis.  When I didn't get enough rotation they would fall off axis.
Results prior to this using other grips and attempting  the "dead cat bounce" were inconsistent and the best I ever accomplished was 34 tosses before a seven appeared.
The "ideal" grip, if you can get used to it, actually assists in accomplishing this fast rotation.

Mad Professor

Hi Pablo
I initially borrowed the phrase from my Wall Street brethren.  There, it means the lack of a price up-tick once a certain stock has bottomed-out.
For Precision-Shooting, it means that the dice land and just die there without any further rolling.  Have you ever made a throw where the dice seem to hit an invisible pothole and just stop dead?  Well, with practice, you can turn this occasional "accident" into a studied "intentional throw".  It works best when they just hit the base of the wall, and flat-out die.
Please understand that I can't do it ALL the time.  Rather, it works about 20% to 25% of the time.  Also, it only works on some types of tables, at least for me.  The other 75% to 80% of the time, I am VERY happy if I keep the dice on axis AND they have the same number of rotations.  In that case, we are still in profit-city if those few available number-combos are covered with bets.
My method of throwing has been covered to an already nauseating degree, but I also wrote about another chaps dead-cat technique in the article entitled "Life is Craps According to Pittsburgh Johnny".  You can find that on my "MP Speaks" page here at dicesetter.com.


For me, there is a direct correlation between distance and backspin.  Most of you know that my favorite shooting position is from next to stick.  Since I stack the dice - a relatively rare thing among dice setters - I get less backspin than most folks.  Also, I vary my toss, depending on the results I'm attaining.  My normal stack toss involves quite a lot of wrist action as I move my arm upward from the table at about a forty-five degree angle, shooting for a landing zone just short of the pass line, with one-hop over the bets and to the wall.  I do achieve a bit of back spin with this toss - but not a lot.  The other throw I use from this distance is move of a "push" than a toss.  With this one I begin with the dice up about rail high - and extend my arm gently toward the other end of the table - releasing the dice with virtually no wrist action.  When this throw is "on" the dice will move through the air in a relatively flat plane - arcing no higher than eye-level with box - with no spin, pitch or yaw to speak of.  They travel beyond the pass line and do the dead cat bounce thing at or very near the base of the back wall.
As the distance between me (the shooter) and the back wall increases - so does the amount of backspin I use.  Shooting from stick second I always use the first toss I outlined above, with lots of wrist action.  Shooting from the hook or straight out, though, I switch to a side-by-side set and further increase the amount of backspin.  
I have had fairly good success keeping both dice on mirror-axis from straight out, setting and rolling hardways, for example, using that last pitch.  
Than again, there are those days when absolutely nothing works.  Those are generally the days I chart tables, start setting for the seven after the come out, and play the dark side.


Right now, I am working with the grip that I try and envision as a "pitching pennies" grip.  It was in a post in December and I have been testing it lately.  I don't have a huge amount of results due to Xmas issues - but the die seem to have almost no spin (in the ideal throw).  This was what I was using during my New Years visit, (my last try at a live casino), and I can't say if it was the grip, the throw, my outstanding good looks, (NAH!!), or the alignment of the moon that produced the double bubble on the hard eight - but then, I'm not one to complain when I "get lucky" and beat the odds!! (such as the math wizards all say we shouldn't be playing this "bad game") - HAH!!
Just a few thoughts...

Back to Round Table Page



Dice Coach & InstructorsNewsletter / Contact / Home

Copyright 2001 - 2017, All Rights Reserved, DiceSetters.com, No Reproduction Allowed Without Prior Written Approval.

Online Since February 2001

Designed by www.MrPositive.com