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Please remember!  These are archives!  The Dice Setter message board was shut down. What is published here are just a few of the threads documenting the early days of dice setting strategies and opinions written by the pioneers of dice influencing.

TOPIC : Dice Pick Ups

Hi All!

I have been precision shooting for a very short time, maybe 3 or months. My first experiences were positive but I now want to try a new pick up method. Before I do that I thought I would run it by the board to see if someone else has comments, who has tried this.

Yuri Kononenko recommends in his book "Dice Control For Casino Craps - Gambling Disciples of God" pick up's are where the style is two dice side by side. He never does mention stacking the dice one on the other. My questions would be, would the dice sets be the same or work the same way such as flying V one on the other? If using the stacked set should it be thrown a certain way, vertical spin, no spin et cetera?

The Engineer
Foxwoods -&- The Mohegan Sun

Rhythm Dice Setter

I always start with the dices side by side. As long as I get long RSS on my throws, I stay with it. If my throws RSS is below 6 after several sessions, I switch and stack the dices on throwing.  If it is still choppy then I switch sets but stay with the 7 avoidance axis sets. It is something that you learn after experience. The key is 3 in a row is a trend and you need to change something to avoid large losses.

This msg board has the most knowledgeable dice setters and are always helpful.
B) B) B)


Thank you for the trends in you reply. I don't really understand your acronym RSS) but I'm assuming you need to throw 6 numbers or more.

I think the main point of precision shooting is cut the house edge by throwing sets that bring down the percentage of 7's. This
I have to agree with for right styled betting. Irishsetter has done just a great job with this site, and I would like to congratulate him for all the fine work he has done.

The Engineer

Rhythm Dice Setter

RSS is abbreviation for rolls before a 7 shows per session or every turn that your time to shoot. On this msg board, they use a few abbreviations to minimize typing.  It is referred to in one of the main threads.


...also referred to as rolls to seven ratio in some circles.  I'm one of those stackers you were asking about.  The answer is - I
keep them on the same axis - just stack one die on top of the other.  Rather than "tumble" the dice thru the air I try to keep
them on a relatively flat plane by "pushing" the dice thru the air rather than throwing them.  Like others, I try for a soft landing and very little bounce.  


Well thanks Heavy, I'm glad someone use's the stack to some advantage. I'l have to try it a bit more. I like the style but
need a good outcome. I tried it last night, using Rhythm Dice Setter's idea of if you’re off your RSS you switch throwing styles. Here is what happens to me. I had some good days a few weeks ago, and could do nothing wrong if you get my drift. Any table I went to I had at least one great roll. Then bang God knocks you off your pedestal, point-throw-seven out and everyone at the table looks like they are smarting at you or sympathizing because they have done that their whole life. Here is what I discover, and this all ties in with MP's Long Table thing which has had me and I'm sure others distracted for weeks. I sometimes play at the Mohegan Sun, a casino that predominately has long tables, maybe 14’ long. They recently opened a new wing with additional tables, and they added several 10 ‘ones. I’m using these tables thinking it would be easier to throw; at least I don’t have to learn the underhanded Long-Ranger throw. I use Rhythm’s idea of the stack, and I switch when my RSS is bad. By this time I’m pretty much disgusted, have given up, so I relaxed and I throw a few numbers. Not good enough though so I cut my losses and leave. I come back later to one of these SLT’s (Super Long…… Tables)  and I roll 4 points in maybe 15 or so throws. Net time I shoot 3 points in 12+ numbers. The Long table must be straightening out my throws, cutting down on velocity, arc, et cetera. I have played on these tables for years? What long table problem are you talking about MP??  I need the Tonto throw for the short table! Anyone got one of those? For kickers does anyone know the inside dimensions of the standard casino craps tables? I would really like to know, I’m a little afraid of whipping out a measuring tape in the gambling hall.

Hey, have a great Turkey Day all!
The Engineer

Rhythm Dice Setter

I have problems with the long tables too. Imperial Palace -&- Casino Royale in Vegas has long tables. My problem is that I can't get a consistent rhythm throwing and hitting the same spot and minimize the bounce back from the wall after the hit. Have tried the Long Ranger underhand throw but no success with a good SRR. I try to avoid long tables since there are so many casinos in Vegas that you can always find tables with few people shooting and you can get your favorite spot next to
the stick man. Before finding this msg board, I always stack the dices when I throw. For the last 6 months, I have used the side by side grip with good SRR so have been using it regularly and only switch to stacking when the dices get choppy and SRR goes down. With both grips, the key is to minimize the bounce back from the wall and keep the dices within each other ~12 inches. With money management and a quit when you are ahead philosophy, you will wind up ahead most of the time if you can wait out the time dices will return to a dice setter or your turn again.


Rhythm as I was saying I have just the opposite reaction to tables. It is in most part due to practice, as I started playing
craps on long tables, so aside from the normal hazards of the game I have no problem with the long table. I use the 5 finger
top dice grip though, and I think that the Mad Professor has an idea in changing the grip to accommodate the length of the
table. I’ll try the 4 -&- 3 finger top grips on the short table to see how that improves my throws.

Some sort of Lock Grip might work too as MP seems to have invented what appears to be an abbreviation of that grip where
he has moved the thumb off the dice to one side instead of holding the sides of the dice in with the first finger and pinky. This may have been for control, but pressure on the sides of the dice cause them to fly apart no matter what finger you are using. I hope I haven’t over spoke here about MP’s Long Ranger grip as he would of course know in more detail what he meant for each finger to be doing during the toss.

I do hope we all get what we want…at least on the next toss.

The Engineer


I was just at Mohegan Sun last week and I would swear that the short tables were 12' although I'm not sure.  I have a 10' table
at home and the inside dimensions are 45" X 112".



I made a trip to the Mohegan Sun -&- Foxwoods and gathered some data. I did not include table height which is subject that came up in the post Heavy's Practice Table nor are we talking dice size. This makes all this information proprietary depending upon what casinos tables you are trying to duplicate.

The Mohegan Sun has 14' -&- 10' tables while Foxwoods has all 12' tables with a width of 42". Giving each casino distinct

The Engineer


I would like to post a correction to my last post. When I measured the casino tables I had to measure by stepping by an empty table toe to heel. After doing the same thing at home I found that what I assumed at first was wrong. Jdice may be correct in his assumption of the 10' table. I have come up with some strange measurements. 9 1/2' and 13 1/2 foot
tables at the Mohegan and 11 1/2' tables at Foxwoods.

So I'm now within half a foot. No way to tell without asking someone in the casino who knows.

The Engineer


I have had the opportunity to measure a Paulson table in detail.  The table is described as a 14' table.  The base is 47" wide and 13'6" long.  The bank area adds another 4" to the width of the layout.

The 14' measure comes with the chip rails.

The height the table surface is 26" from the carper.


Now that is a really huge table, something like what I must be seeing on my trips to the Mohegan Sun. So I might not be wrong to think some of these tables are not even foot measurements, 9-1/2, 11-1/2, etc.


The Engineer


All the tables I have ever seen are measured in even increments of 2' from 8 foot (one dealer stand up tub) to a 16 foot
monster.  Moheigan Sun does have mostly 14 footers if my memory serves me right.  I had a great hand there on a 12 footer, which was on an end, there last spring.

I think that even if a table is 11' 3" it is considered a 12' table.


For the Good Fellows in a long roll:

You know are both welcome to the Mohegan Sun, and all the chips you can carry. Maybe someday we will meet up on the felt.

Table size does seem adjustable with your style of dice pick up.

If your a tall fellow like me you can cut off two feet of table. Almost anyone should be able to cut off a foot with a steep lean
in over the table.

The Engineer

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