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  Topic: Practice Data Accumulation

Post Date: 11/11/2001 11:03:47 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: PorkChop
Slogan: Hard 6 = Double Parley

MP / Irish

I am using a voice system to record my practice throws at home - I am using two color die and I record the following data for each throw:


1. Table position, (SL, SLL, SR, SRR, etc).
2. Top face for red and green die.
3. Vertical face, (the face that I look at on the vertical plane), for each die.
4. Grip, (I have defined three grips and numbered them 1-3).


1. Number of die that hit wall.
2. Approximate distance, (estimated in inches), where the die hit the surface.
3. Approximate distance, (estimated in inches), of roll back from wall.
4. Top face of both read and green die.
5. Vertical face of both red and green die.

I also record the following:

Come Out
Point #
Point Made
Seven Out

Do you recommend recording any additional data??

When I get sufficient data, I can track/analyze a multitude of options - progress, results, trends, etc.

Any input that either of you would recommend would be greatly appreciated.


Post Date: 11/12/2001 1:38:13 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Mad Professor

Hi PC,

Your previous post on this subject, was one of the ones that I had lengthy responses for that got lost in cyber-space over the weekend.

I've included the full-length answer in my upcoming "Even More Cyber-Questions" article.

In the meantime, I think that your method is GREAT.

Your approach is just about the best technique that I've come across. It should be pretty easy for you to determine exactly what works, and what doesn't. It's also an excellent indicator of your dedication and commitment to your goals.

Keep up the great work!


Post Date: 11/12/2001 4:30:22 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: 7th Wave

You may soon tire of all of theh measuring, but I agree with MP, great recording, and it sounds like you mean business good.. Keep it up, only thing I notice missing is practicing til you are sick of it.. Two different colored die is a real smart one..

7th Wave

Post Date: 11/12/2001 6:38:37 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Stu
Slogan: Professional want-to-be

To Pork Chop:

What type of "voice system" are you using?

What type of table are you practicing on?





Topic: Practice Data Accumulation - Procedure

Post Date: 11/12/2001 10:58:50 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: PorkChop
Slogan: Hard 8's = Double Parlay

All -

Thanks for the input!!

The data entry really isn't too tuff - I made a large, (24" x 36"), color drawing to show the different grips, (with the number listed above them). Also on that drawing is the sequence of the data entry cycle - in LARGE letters so that I can easily read it from a few feet away. I use a Dragon Natural Speaking voice data entry system into an Excel spreadsheet that I have written background programming for that looks for "KEY" words to perform functions - i.e. - when I speak the words "NEW ROLL" a new row of data is started, beginning at a set location, (say starting at cell C5 - then beginning every row going down at the same relative location, ie - next roll at C6, then C7, etc), this keeps all of the same data in the same fields for evaluation.

I define table position and grip for each set of practice throws, (as these do not change throw to throw - it would be a waste of effort to record them each time), however - I can modify the grip by entering key word "GRIP" and speaking the number of the defined grip - unless re-defined, the grip is the same for each subsquent row of data

After "NEW ROLL" the following is a typical data entry sequence with all words spoken semi rapidly:

"Six" Die one, (RED), top face, (viable data is one to six).
"Six" Die two, (GREEN), top face, (viable data is one to six).
"Five" Die one, (RED), vertical face, (looking at me), (viable data is one to six).
"Four" Die two, (GREEN), vertical face, (looking at me), (viable data is one to six).

The above is the "pre-throw" data harvest and takes approximately two seconds after I have physically manipulated the die - which is ALSO a training function that I work on - getting either an axis set or a absolute number set quickly - right now I am concentrating on axis sets as they are easier - however - I do plan on harvesting data from specific number sets.

"Out" This key word is for a Come Out roll - it will remain constant until it is changed by the key word "Point" which in turn will remain constant until changed by key word "Dead".

These last three key words, (OUT - POINT- DEAD), allow me to have throws prior to establishing a point, then throw a few, (soon - (hopefully), several), rolls during the interim, then record the decision.

At this time I will concentrate on my landing point/target and throw the dice, (I place colored tape on my table surface at different target distances, (ie - six inches away from wall, eight inches, ten, fifteen, etc), I know that I can't do this in the real world, however, it helps with the data gathering, plus I get used to the approximate depth relationship of die impact target and wall - physical memory involves hand, arm, finger, and eye target training.

"Two" Number of die that hit the back wall, (viable data is one or two).
"Eight" Approximate distance from the wall that the die hit, (they should land approximately together - I may think about recording that information also - i.e. - if the die separate excessively during the throw - I think I must have done something wrong during the release), (viable data is whatever the approximate distance is).
"Five" Distance that the die roll back from the wall after impacting it - (again this is a subjective measurement and can be any number).
"Three" Die one, (RED), top face, (viable data is one to six).
"Three" Die two, (GREEN), top face, (viable data is one to six).
"Six" Die one, (RED), vertical face, (looking at me), (viable data is one to six).
"Two" Die two, (GREEN), vertical face, (looking at me), (viable data is one to six).

(I also know that these last two numbers are subjective as the relationship of the final resting place of the die is undetermined - however - as I do not have chips in my sight path - I can usually see what is facing me).

This "post throw" data takes approximately five seconds to record. I also have an "ON/OFF" puck that I sometimes use as well as a standard "Hook" to collect the die back to me for the next throw. I set the magnification size of my data sheet to approximately 150% of normal so that I can easily read the monitor, (17"), from a distance, (slightly wider than the width of the practice table - about six feet from where I stand). My spreadsheet also turns a bar green during a point roll and red when the point is off - so I have both a physical, (the puck if I use it), and a visible tracking mechanism to always know where I am at in the cycle.

In this early going, I average approximately two to four throws per minute - as I am just trying to harvest data at this time - to see if the SRR improves with sufficient practice, (as I really suspect that it will). Perhaps at a later time, after I (perhaps) reduce the amount of data harvested, the throws per minute will increase - but I am not after quantity - I am targeting quality.

I constructed my practice table with a " thick by 40" by 50" section of hardened fiber board with a mica sealed covering already glued on, (available at Home Depot for about $30 - they even cut it to size). I attached a single felt lower pad, (approximately 1/8" thick), and then a standard felt layout, (also approximately 1/8" thick). I had a carpenter make 11" radius corners and attached the casino quality diamond bumper material with adhesive glue, then dowel pined the corners to the table. I support it with wood tripod legs at a height of approximately 27" above floor level to the base of the table.

(This one is for MP - I made the table "portable" - i.e. I can pull the dowel pins and remove the side walls and pick up the table from the legs and store it quickly - as sometimes my wife wants to use the area for other things - WHY - I don't know - but then I don't ask either - (but I do like the resulting clean clothes - LOL!))

Post Date: 11/12/2001 11:43:19 AM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: smoove j


That's an impressive approach to the whole thing. Now if you could just get a digital camera or two and write some visual recognition software, you could truly automate the whole thing!
Keep up the good work, and keep us posted on your progess. I'd be curious to see how it works out long term.

May your 7's be few and far between,
--smoove j

Post Date: 11/12/2001 12:01:12 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Mad Professor

Hi PC,

Your dedication to "getting it right", and charting your progress is commendable. Instead of just posting it here on this BB, you should consider putting it into an article-sized format for those who wish to follow your progress on Irishsetter's site.

The Lernout & Hauspie voice-recognition products like Dragon, are quite good. A while back I switched to IBM's ViaVoice 9.0 because of the amount of dictation that I do, including all of my articles and most of my posts.

You are on the right track. Continued Good Luck & Good Skill at the tables.


Post Date: 11/12/2001 12:23:51 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: PorkChop
Slogan: Hard 8's = Double Parlay

MP -

Thank you for the input -

Referencing the L&H vs the Via Voice - (if) you have used both - which do you prefer?? - I do have (some) issues with Dragon Speak, (mostly - "SIX" is spelled vs "6"), but my evaulation program takes care of that when I run it - but I am always open to improvements!.

As far as making this data widely available - I will - when I think that I have sufficient data to publish that indicates a trend, (either good or bad), as you know - data is data - and the results are not always what you want - but at least you have something to review.

Best Luck!


Post Date: 11/12/2001 4:16:50 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: heavy
Slogan: Color me - low tech

Jesus. What ever happend to bic pens and spiral memo pads?

Post Date: 11/13/2001 1:54:44 PM (Pacific USA) P4K
Author: Mad Professor

Hi PC,

I have used both pieces of software. I started using the L&H version about three years ago.

The newest IBM Release 9 is great. The only drawback is that it is "hyphen" crazy. It hyphenates words that I didn't even know SHOULD be hyphenated. Other than that, I'm very satisfied.


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