Please remember! These are archives! The Dice Setter message board was shut down. What is published here are just a few of the threads documenting the early days of dice setting strategies and opinions written by the pioneers of dice influencing.
Paging MP – The Palms
Heavy
Hey MP –
Have you tried out the tables at the Palms yet? I picked up some cancelled Palms dice at my local casino supply store recently – in amber, green, and blue. They are gloss finished, but the edges don’t seem quite as sharp as they should. Also, the composite they’re made out of feels weird – almost oily – and they sound different than other dice when I drop them on my desk. Some are cancelled with a hand press, some are scratched across the six pips and the date out of service written on them. I feel confident they’re not culls – but dice that actually saw service at the tables. None of them have serial numbers. I’ve heard that they have a microchip imbedded in the pips, but cannot confirm. They are keyed. Anyway, I was just wondering if you or anyone else on the site had seen/played with Palms dice and whether or not you had any similar observations. Seems to me the composite they’re made from is somehow different.
Billy
Heavy,
I have played at the palms a few times and I cant tell you anything about the dice>BUT the last time I was there the combination of the hard table surface, acrylic layout and from what you are saying about the dice, the reaction of the dice on the table was very violent and difficult to predict. I tried a few hands and gave up, and went across the street to the gold coast and it was like night and day.
I don’t recall the dice reacting that violently when I was there in March, so maybe something was different.
Mad Professor
Hi Heavy,
Good question about the (relatively) new Palms Casino.
The regular dice they use are of the slightly beveled-edge variety. I hadn’t heard about the imbedded microchip rumor on these particular dice, although the idea has been a running joke in the gaming-industry for a number of years.
My sense is that the Nevada Gaming Commission have not yet approved any sort of “computer” dice. However, George Maloof (of the Palms) does have an application before the NGC regarding the use of “micro-embedded gaming position tracking”.
This concept (which IS NOT currently in use) uses a sensor under each players gaming position. This is similar in look to the “friendly craps” layout that Fitzgeralds used to use until about five years ago. Each players position is marked by a betting circle on the Pass Line, and in each of the Place bet boxes. The under-felt microchip reacts and records the value of the chips placed directly above it. This method tracks players bets more precisely. As you probably know, both Harrah’s and Tropicana-A/C (with the NJ-CCC) have similar applications in place. You are doubtless aware that this technology is already in place on selected BJ and Pai Gow tables in various casinos in NV, A/C and a few other gaming jurisdictions.
As to the make-up or composition of the dice, well, they seem to do okay for me. However, as you know, the Palms uses a striped felt layout, with the alternating light-green and dark-green stripes running diagonally across the table. THAT takes some getting used to, as do their hardwood floors which don’t have the same traction as carpeting.
Billy, while the table surfaces at the Palms may be hard, a lower-trajectory throw usually does the trick. I’ve long said that one-throw for all tables DOES NOT work. Adapting to tables is crucial. A lower, S-L-O-W-E-R throw usually tames a wild table.
Billy
MP,
I play on very hard surfaces many times every week at my local joint, the low trajectory shot has been my bread and butter for years. I played at the Palms in January and again in early and mid March with some success, however when I went there in June it seemed that the reaction of the dice was even more violent than they were earlier in the year. Have they always used the beveled dice? I usually try to stay away from the beveled dice since they tend to run more, and there is something about that new type of layout that seems to give me trouble. I have had the opinion that the new layouts that have been popping up lately are made from something different. I had guessed that it was some sort of synthetic material possibly acrylic. I haven’t been comfortable playing anywhere that has that new type of layout, maybe its visual but I think that it doesn’t give as much cushioning as the felt layouts.
Mad Professor
Rhythm DiceSetter Fred & Billy,
Both of your comments are valid and correct. The “Low & Slow” method can indeed be a real bread’n butter weapon that brings in some consistent profit from otherwise “unbeatable” tables. I talk about this and a few other methods in the upcoming “Mad Professors Shooting Bible-Part II” article.
Okay, let’s talk about the newer “lightning fast” felt that some casinos are now using. They are a “wool/polyester” blend that is much more durable and longer-lasting than the pure wool variety. These are NOT the cheap layouts that the Gamblers General Store sells at a discount. These are premium-priced items.
There is two HUGE casino benefits from the new felt:
(a) They last two to three times longer than wool, but more importantly, they don’t “pill” and shed like pure wool. Those little balls of worn-out felt are called “pills”, like the little balls of wool on a cheap sweater.
(b) The felt can be stretched much TIGHTER than normal wool felt. Think in terms of as tight as a drum-skin. That will give you some pretty unusual dice-reactions with higher-trajectory tosses, and in the casinos mind, this adds to dice-randomness.
Now, there is a huge upside to these “tight-skins” for Precision-Shooters, and that is with a super-low trajectory throw, the dice will actually slide up to two or three feet upon initial contact with the felt. Now, just think about that whole idea for a second! These “blended” felts are definitely CONSISTENTLY beatable, you just have to know how to skin that particular cat!
Billy
The only places that I have seen these layouts are the palms, green valley and a casino in my home state that is not nearby so isn’t in my normal rotation. I will be playing at both Green Valley, and the palms in the next few weeks so I will be trying once again to find some consistency on them. Some of my friends love them, and do very well at both places. I think that getting comfortable with them is important because I think they will become more prevalent due to the graphics that can be used and the durability.
Heavy
Billy –
I may try to get some play in at Green Valley late Wednesday or early Thursday. Let me know if you’re going to be around. I plan to spend most of Thursday over at G2E – but would not be opposed to an early morning session at Green Valley, at the Reserve, or over at Suncoast. I also plan to get some time on the tub tables this trip – we missed those completely in March. Last of all, I want to get some play in at Suncoast so I can get established in their comp system – as I’d like to make it my base casino when the Irishsetter, Beaudacious and I do the Vegas seminars. Anyway, you’ve got my cell number and I’ve got yours. We’ll try to get a session or two in if you’re up for it.
Billy
Heavy,
I’ll be in town for 10 days so give me a call and we can drive out there.I do want to play at Green Valley,I have two friends that are working there now.
I love the Sun Coast and also the Rampart next door.The Rampart is under new management again and I think that they are looking for players.
Mad Professor
Billy,
Yes, The Rampart Casino (formerly Regent Las Vegas, formerly Resort at Summerlin) is DEFINITELY looking for new players. If you use a decent $1000 buy-in, and give them a fairly low level of 2-hour play; they will give you complete run of their house. Their suites, spa and restaurants are all first-class. Their $5 craps tables are virtually empty 20 hours each day.
Heavy,
In addition to the Crapshooter sit-down tables at Casino Royale and Imperial Palace, you can find the mini-tub tables at:
Wild West Casino (beside Orleans Casino on Tropicana Blvd.)
Boardwalk Casino (in the Holiday Inn Boardwalk)
Nevada Palace (on Boulder Hwy.)
Speedway Casino (near Las Vegas Motor Speedway)
Stu
To Mad P.
“the dice will slide up 2 or 3 feet” you posted.
Does this “new” surface cause the dice to actually slide…like there is butter on the table?
I have not seen that type of surface in AC. What is the string in the middle of some Atlantic City tables? Is it to prevent someone from sliding the dice? I don’t see how dice can be slid on those normal surfaces anyway.
I never knew that Tropicana in AC had a micro-chip under the lay out.
Thanks for the real word info.
Mad Professor
Stu,
The new type of felt that the Palms, Green Valley Resort and a couple of other casinos are using is of a “lower-nap” tightly-woven material.
If you think of ballistic-nylon (parachute material) or the new “micro-fiber” that is used in the “dance-club style” shiny shirts and pants that is popular with today’s youth; then you know the material that I am talking about.
The new table-felt is woven together, blending micro-fine polyester with pure high-tensile wool that has been mercerized (like polished cotton). The result is a fabric that is high-wearing. It can also be tightly stretched, about 300% tighter than conventional all-wool felt.
On a craps table, this poly-wool blend makes the dice “pop” and scatter like crazy. If you see a craps player use one of those high-trajectory “moon” shots, the dice splatter and scatter like crack-sleepers during a police raid…you never know where they will go. A 45-degree landing usually results in one or both dice splitting off sideways onto their side-axis.
However, using the Low & Slow delivery, the dice can leave your hand and travel like an arrow or a dart. NO, you cannot slide them! The idea is to throw them on a low-trajectory, and upon touchdown, they slide on their own. The new felt is VERY low-friction. The fact that they use SLIGHTLY-bevelled-edge dice also helps.
Yes, the string, trip-wires and/or under-felt dowels are there near the Prop Box on some tables to prevent dice-sliding which is totally illegal. The toss that I am talking about is not illegal. The dice are THROWN and released about 4 to 8 inches above the table surface.
The Trop in A/C does not yet have the embedded microchips on their craps layout. They have APPLIED for it to the NJ-CCC.
Nofieldfive
MP stated:
On a craps table, this poly-wool blend makes the dice “pop” and scatter like crazy. If you see a craps player use one of those high-trajectory “moon” shots, the dice splatter and scatter like crack-sleepers during a police raid…you never know where they will go. A 45-degree landing usually results in one or both dice splitting off sideways onto their side-axis.>
This is the new material they covered all the tables at the Grand Casino Coushatta in Louisiana with. It was truly amazing to watch the dice react on those layouts. I quit going over there because of it. Lake Charles is 40 minutes closer and have the “old style” layout. I may have to go back over to Coushatta to try the “Low & Slow” method .
Stu
To Mad P.
Thanks for the reply.
If I encounter that type of layout I will try the low-slow-and-easy roll. Playing mostly in Atlantic City, I have never seen that type of layout. Also, I have never seen beveled dice in Atlantic City.
Is the Palms a casino in Las Vegas Nevada? If not what city and state is it in?
Heavy
Yeah, Stu. Its a relatively new off-strip casino. It’s club, Ghost bar – high above the city – is said to have one of the most spectacular views in Vegas.
